C:tR questions

apbills

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I created this thread since I have a question, not an errata.
Reading Section 9 and 10 I am confused about the ability of GA Aircraft and heavy bomb loads.
9.1 states they conduct attacks exactly as Fighter Bombers.
10.1 and the examples all talk about Strafing runs.
10.2 states "Bomb loads may not be applied into multiple attacks on a single hex." and is titled "POINT ATTACK". 10.2 does not state you can not use a point attack.

Can you use a point attack with a GA Heavy Bombload attack? I.e., if you declare a point attack, would you use MGs against the target hex from the first hex of the attack, and then attempt to bomb the target hex from the second hex of the flight path, potentially hitting the target hex and then the next 1 or 2 hexes depending on the bomb load multiplier?

I am pretty sure the intent is to not allow bombing runs in conjunction with a point attack. Why not just state that in 10.2?
 
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rreinesch

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Section 9 is a general statement about GA aircraft. Section 10 deals more specifically with GA aircraft that have the type of multiple bomb loads exhibited by the B25 and A20. In this case the characteristic of bombs dropping in multiple consecutive hexes along the flight path is similar in nature to a strafing run. As opposed to the bombing of a single target hex, that characteristic is specifically excluded in that the 2 or 3 bomb FP applications (for the A20 and B25, respectively) cannot be applied to a single hex.
 

ASLSARGE

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In general, Rick hit it on the head. I will add some of my thoughts to try to clarify things, without muddling them too badly (muddling is something I do very well BTW).

Section 9.1 is pretty much word for word what was listed in section 8 of the Crucible of Steel rules, explaining the differences between FB's and GA aircraft. This was done for those who do not own CoS and would need to know that. Section 10 gives the specific details of how these multihex bombing runs are to be conducted. Rule 10.2 should not have the label "Point Attack". Not sure how it got in there as it is not on my personal master copy. Most like the text got inserted when the rules were reformatted prior to the final editing process. Be that as it may, that section should probably be renamed something along the lines of "Attack Types" or something similar. Maybe we can add a line specifying that a Point Attack may not be used with a Heavy Bomb Load run. We will put our heads together and fix it and when done Rick can post a sticky note online.

During development I was half-tempted to create a playing aid for the ground attack bombing runs, but I figured the rules spelled it out pretty clearly without great detail so a playing aid was probably not really needed and we could reduce the cost of the final product as well. I know that new procedures in ASL, if they are detailed, can benefit from a playing aid but in this instance I did not feel it was justified as the whole rules section covers just a few paragraphs of text and a couple graphic examples already.

Any inconsistencies or errors I will accept responsibility for as Corregidor is "my baby". As any issues arise, we will address them and correct them to the best of our abilities. We strive to produce the best ASL products available. When we fall short, we work harder so our next product is even better. Hopefully, everyone else feels the same. Thank you for your input and for your purchase. I hope you really enjoy playing Corregidor as much as I did in designing it. Any other issues arise, or if any questions come up, do not hesitate to let us know.

Sarge
 

apbills

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Thanks for your reply. I think it would be clearer to make a statement somewhere in the section 10 rules that point attacks are not allowed if bombing with heavy bomb loads. 10.2 is probably not even needed if that statement is made.

I do have another design question regarding the heavy bomb loads. It revolves around this statement in the 10.1 rule "Prior to reaching the "final" bomb target hex, if the aircraft is forced to take Evasive action or is damaged, the strafing/bomb run is cancelled for that player turn."

I am not well versed in aircraft rules, so maybe it is just my lack of knowledge (known as ignorance) of the rules.

In the normal Light AA rules, the strafing/bomb run is stopped from that point forward, not cancelled. Effectively, if you already bombed or attacked (which in the case would seemingly be in the hex you rolled the Bomb Release dr) the results would still occur even if you had to evade or were destroyed after that point.

How do you cancel the IFT effects of the strafing portion of the strafing/bomb run after they have already been applied? How would light AA fire at me in an effect hex stop the bombs I dropped 4 hexes previously?
 

ASLSARGE

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The intent is if the bombs have not already started to drop, then the bombing run is cancelled....ie; the bombardier decided not to press the release button and the plane moves off to try to attack again later. Once the bombs begin falling there is no way to "stop" them. Let's say the plane is forced into evasive maneuvers in the first dropped hex......the plane must continue his bombing run ( 2 or 3 hexes) before he makes his evasive ,manuevers.
 

apbills

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OK, so the intent is known. The rule as stated does not do that. It says that anytime from the start of the run until you reach the final target hex, if forced to evade or if damaged, the run is canceled. Perhaps instead of "is cancelled for that player turn" it should state "is cancelled for the remainder of that player turn".
It would also be useful to understand when the bombs are dropped. My assumption is the bomb drop starts when you roll the Bomb Release dr. the bombs would start dropping at that time, and would continue to fall for either another 1 or 2 hexes (x2 or x3 loads).

I will re-read the section tomorrow and see what I am missing.
 

rreinesch

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OK, so the intent is known. The rule as stated does not do that. It says that anytime from the start of the run until you reach the final target hex, if forced to evade or if damaged, the run is canceled. Perhaps instead of "is cancelled for that player turn" it should state "is cancelled for the remainder of that player turn".
It would also be useful to understand when the bombs are dropped. My assumption is the bomb drop starts when you roll the Bomb Release dr. the bombs would start dropping at that time, and would continue to fall for either another 1 or 2 hexes (x2 or x3 loads).

I will re-read the section tomorrow and see what I am missing.
Working with Sarge on a clarification for this paragraph. Might modify the paragraph some, and/or will clarify it through a Q&A.
 

apbills

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OK, work has completed for the week and I had a chance to re-read the aircraft rules. Unfortunately I have more questions than before. Perhaps I am being a bit too focused on this, but I really like the concept and addition to the aircraft rules. I keep seeing low level bombing run pictures of the explosions behind the plane as it flies by at tree-top level on it bombing run.

First, There is definitely a disconnect between section 10.1 and the first example. The 3rd sentence of 10.1 - "This target hex cannot be the initial hex in the strafing run,…" and 4th sentence of the example - "The American player declares that hex R20 is the intended bomb target hex…" (which in the example is the initial hex in the strafing run) are in conflict.

With that said, the following is a potential example of how a bombing run may work. I use the pictures from the examples as a reference. Assume for the initial example there is no Light AA around.

The A-20 passes a sighting check and the aircraft is placed in N18 with the strafing/bombing run to be hexes R20-S20-T21-U21. The initial bombing hex is declared as S20 (per 10.2 this occurs now, not when the aircraft is moved to a new hex as in E7.42). The Bomb Release dr is made and the outcome is that the bombing begins in the intended target hex. The strafing/bombing run begins.

From N18, hex R20 is attacked with MGs.

The A-10 is moved to O18, and attacks S20 with MGs. It then attacks S20 with bombs making the appropriate TH rolls. (Per E7.42 it can attack with both, but must use the MGs first if they are used)

The A-10 is moved to P19, and attacks T21 with bombs (again making TH rolls). It can not attack with MGs due to E7.42 as I read "normally" in the parenthetical in the example "(all aircraft machineguns may engage ground targets along their flight path normally)" to mean as per E7.42.

The A-10 is done with the attacking, however, it is moved to Q19, R20 and S20 for potential Light AA fire. (per E7.511, it must move to the last hex attacked).

The above example try's to follow E7 with the addition of the multi-hex bombing capability the only addition.

Now, the final two sentences of 10.2 add some confusion. "Prior to reaching the "final" bomb target hex, if the aircraft is forced to take Evasive action or is damaged, the strafing/bomb run is cancelled for that player turn. Otherwise, the strafing run will continue until the bombs are dropped (unless the aircraft is Damaged and/or Eliminated)."

They could seem to imply that the bomb drop does not occur until you reach the final bomb target hex, instead of using the FB bombing rules which attack from a 4 hex range. If this is the case, my first example would be changed to the following:

From N18, hex R20 is attacked with MGs.

The A-10 is moved to O18, and attacks S20 with MGs.

The A-10 is moved to P19, and attacks T21 with MGs.

The A-10 is moved to R20, and attacks U21 with MGs

The A-10 is moved to S20 (final bomb target hex) and rolls TH on the bombs.

The A-10 is moved to T21 and rolls TH on the bombs.

The A-10 is done with the attacking.

I will let you guys ponder your concept and how you clarify the situation. For me the critical part is about where you actually are when the bombs attack (or are released) to understand the options and consequences of Light AA fire on the attack.
 

rreinesch

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OK, work has completed for the week and I had a chance to re-read the aircraft rules. Unfortunately I have more questions than before. Perhaps I am being a bit too focused on this, but I really like the concept and addition to the aircraft rules. I keep seeing low level bombing run pictures of the explosions behind the plane as it flies by at tree-top level on it bombing run.
That's basically the idea. First off, we're working up some clarifications for that section that will hopefully help. Second, let me start by laying out how this is intended to work, the below narrative is supported by the current Chapter E rules and what we have in section 10. Perhaps not as clear as it could be, the intent is there. We're working on that.

Assuming he is not affected by any AA fire beforehand, when the American player makes a "Bomb Release dr", he is determining the hex where bombs will begin to fall (this represents the bombardier lining up the aircraft and getting it into position). If at any time prior to any actual bomb attack being made in the first initial bombing hex to be attacked, the American player is free to cancel his Bombing Run. Also, any Evade result rom AA fire will also cause the cancellation of the Bomb Run. This represents taking evasive action to avoid ground fire and circle around for another try in another Player turn. The aircraft is not subject to any further AA fire for the remainder of that player turn and the GA aircraft will retain its bomb load. Once any bomb attack has been made in his Bombing Run, the American player must continue and complete the Bombing Run as declared. If the aircraft is eliminated during the Bombing Run, any still remaining bomb attacks in that Bombing Run are cancelled and the aircraft is removed from play. If the aircraft is damaged or forced to evade during the Bombing Run (once bomb attacks have begun), it must complete that Bombing Run, but is then Recalled and removed from play for the duration of the scenario/CG Day.

First, There is definitely a disconnect between section 10.1 and the first example. The 3rd sentence of 10.1 - "This target hex cannot be the initial hex in the strafing run,…" and 4th sentence of the example - "The American player declares that hex R20 is the intended bomb target hex…" (which in the example is the initial hex in the strafing run) are in conflict.
Agree. The examples make sense only if the A-20 were conducting just a bombing run (i.e., not strafing, in addition). If the A-20 were doing both MG strafing and a bomb run, in order to declare R20 as the initial bombing hex, the A-20 could start no closer than M17, with the initial strafing hex being Q19 and the initial bombing hex being R20. Since the initial bombing hex could be any of the 4 hexes of the strafing run (except the first), it is conceivable that you could select the last hex of the 4 hex strafing run to be the initial bombing hex. The bomb release dr could push that out one hex further, so it is conceivable that in the case of the B-25, for example, that it would remain on its run for up to 7 hexes.

With that said, the following is a potential example of how a bombing run may work. I use the pictures from the examples as a reference. Assume for the initial example there is no Light AA around.

The A-20 passes a sighting check and the aircraft is placed in N18 with the strafing/bombing run to be hexes R20-S20-T21-U21. The initial bombing hex is declared as S20 (per 10.2 this occurs now, not when the aircraft is moved to a new hex as in E7.42). The Bomb Release dr is made and the outcome is that the bombing begins in the intended target hex. The strafing/bombing run begins.
Correct. While the initiation of a strafing/bombing run is linked since it is being conducted by a single aircraft, the application of strafing and bombing are independent of each other.

From N18, hex R20 is attacked with MGs.
Correct. What needs to be noted at this point is if AA Fire has caused the aircraft to Evade, it would have broken off its attack before any bombing attacks were made and would not have been flipped over to its non-bomb side. The American player could also have voluntarily called off the attack at this point. If the aircraft had been Damaged at this point, it would have broken off the attack and been Recalled.

The A-20 is moved to O18, and attacks S20 with MGs. It then attacks S20 with bombs making the appropriate TH rolls. (Per E7.42 it can attack with both, but must use the MGs first if they are used)
Correct. At this point the aircraft is committed to its run. So any AA fire that causes Evade or Damage is ignored. Only an Elimination result will stop any further attacks. If a Damage result does occur, after it completes its attacks, it will be Recalled as normal.

The A-20 is moved to P19, and attacks T21 with bombs (again making TH rolls). It can not attack with MGs due to E7.42 as I read "normally" in the parenthetical in the example "(all aircraft machineguns may engage ground targets along their flight path normally)" to mean as per E7.42.
Almost. It can continue to attack with MGs in addition to bombs, and as per E7.42 would conduct the MG attack first.

The A-20 (though the A-10 you originally noted would be VERY cool in 1944) is done with the attacking, however, it is moved to Q19, R20 and S20 for potential Light AA fire. (per E7.511, it must move to the last hex attacked).
It could continue to strafe until it reaches its initial strafing target hex (R20). It would continue to bomb until the end of it's bomb run. The end of the strafing run and the end of the bombing run may or may not correspond.

The above example try's to follow E7 with the addition of the multi-hex bombing capability the only addition.
Which is the intent.

Now, the final two sentences of 10.2 add some confusion. "Prior to reaching the "final" bomb target hex, if the aircraft is forced to take Evasive action or is damaged, the strafing/bomb run is cancelled for that player turn. Otherwise, the strafing run will continue until the bombs are dropped (unless the aircraft is Damaged and/or Eliminated)."
We are working clarifying this sentence specifically, along with other parts of that paragraph.

They could seem to imply that the bomb drop does not occur until you reach the final bomb target hex, instead of using the FB bombing rules which attack from a 4 hex range. If this is the case, my first example would be changed to the following:

From N18, hex R20 is attacked with MGs.

The A-20 is moved to O18, and attacks S20 with MGs.

The A-20 is moved to P19, and attacks T21 with MGs.

The A-20 is moved to R20, and attacks U21 with MGs

The A-20 is moved to S20 (final bomb target hex) and rolls TH on the bombs.

The A-20 is moved to T21 and rolls TH on the bombs.

The A-20 is done with the attacking.

I will let you guys ponder your concept and how you clarify the situation. For me the critical part is about where you actually are when the bombs attack (or are released) to understand the options and consequences of Light AA fire on the attack.
The intent is to adhere as much as possible to Chapter E, Section 7, so this last assumption is not the intent.
 
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apbills

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Excellent, I think we will see something very nice when you have the clarifications.

And like anyone else, my A-10 typo went completely unnoticed by myself and cut/paste did its work. I do a lot of spell checking/typo checking when putting my purchases into my eASLRB yet I still make my own mistakes all the time. Very tedious work.
 

ASLSARGE

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Wow. Practically a novel in that post. I'll try to take them on, one at a time as I can. Way too much to engage with all at once. BTW - I did see your A-10 listings....figured you just preferred a Warthog rather than causing a little Havoc.
I think the confusion with the whole "first hex that could be bombed" thing is the word used. My intent was that the hex the aircraft is placed in may not be the first hex the bombs fall in normally, but based upon the release dr it may be possible for that to happen. The "initial" target hex four hexes distant from the aircraft placement hex IS certainly a possible bomb attack hex as it is THE intended target hex. Don't know if that helps or not. Rick and I will attack the other comments as we can. More rewording in store it appears.
 

Eagle4ty

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Whew! The A-10 thing had me going a bit. I knew the Warthog couldn't be referenced, so he certainly had me digging to find a WW-II nomenclature, figuring it was possibly one of those in-theater builds or the like.:unsure::)
 

Vinnie

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Thought I'd add on here rather than starting a new thread.

8.9 In the player turn in which they land, paratroops may not attack, or rout, nor are they subject to Rout rules including Surrender/Failure to Rout.

Does this include the CCPh?
I assume that the wording was taken from the Chapter E

9.5 AFPh/RtPh: In the Player Turn they land Paratroops may not attack or rout, and are not subject to rout rules (including Surrender/Failure to Rout).
This though does not have the heading of AFPh/RtPh so can be read to include CC.
 

rreinesch

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Thought I'd add on here rather than starting a new thread.

8.9 In the player turn in which they land, paratroops may not attack, or rout, nor are they subject to Rout rules including Surrender/Failure to Rout.

Does this include the CCPh?
I assume that the wording was taken from the Chapter E

9.5 AFPh/RtPh: In the Player Turn they land Paratroops may not attack or rout, and are not subject to rout rules (including Surrender/Failure to Rout).
This though does not have the heading of AFPh/RtPh so can be read to include CC.
No it does not.
Yes this was wording taken from Chapter E.
 
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apbills

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Whew! The A-10 thing had me going a bit. I knew the Warthog couldn't be referenced, so he certainly had me digging to find a WW-II nomenclature, figuring it was possibly one of those in-theater builds or the like.:unsure::)
Happy to help get the blood flowing … ;-)
 

rreinesch

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I think your wording needs some expansion as strictly read, the paratroops may not attack in CCPh either as there is no reference to AdvFPh in your rule.
My apologies, Vinnie, I was incorrect in my response. Have corrected the original post. CC is still possible.
 

ASLSARGE

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My apologies, Vinnie, I was incorrect in my response. Have corrected the original post. CC is still possible.
At least the Paradrop Player Aid is clear and correct. Oh well, at least I got one out of two right.
 

apbills

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A question for the designer. On the last map (pg BFP25) it shows the 503 RCT dropping roughly around the golf course (from the cover art map). In the CGII initial setup, the Japanese are required to setup at least 8 hexes from JJ17, which is kind of the center of the Parade Grounds.

I am curious, What was the reasoning in keeping the Japanese from around the Parade Ground? I do not see a designer note on this.
 
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