Bypass and deep snow

[Juan SantaX]

Hi All

I want to bypass a woods with infantry, and Deep Snow is in effect: How many MF I have to spend? 1 plus 1/2 or 2? It looks to me that 2, but that doesn´t make much sense....

TIA

 

[EagleIV]

It depends on how many hexsides you are bypassing. If you are bypassing 1 hexside it is 1.5MF, if you are bypassing 2 hexsides it is 2MF (assuming all OG hexsides and the same level, etc.) Per the middle of A4.31 Infantry may bypass 1 or 2 hexsides around the woods for (usually) 1MF and rarely does it matter if you bypass 1 or 2 hexsides (unless you can be seen only at the second vertex or it is a much better shot there), but with deep snow the MF cost is different as well.

 

[Juan SantaX]

It depends on how many hexsides you are bypassing. If you are bypassing 1 hexside it is 1.5MF, if you are bypassing 2 hexsides it is 2MF (assuming all OG hexsides and the same level, etc.) Per the middle of A4.31 Infantry may bypass 1 or 2 hexsides around the woods for (usually) 1MF and rarely does it matter if you bypass 1 or 2 hexsides (unless you can be seen only at the second vertex or it is a much better shot there), but with deep snow the MF cost is different as well.

I read it, and I agree, but dont make much sense to me…

 

[Larry]

½ MF per hexside ... if it is hexside crossed, then 1 ½ for two hexside bypassed. If it is hexsides traversed, then 2 MF to bypass two hexsides bypassed. I think the "such units must pay an extra ½ MF per hexside" is ambiguous in this context.

 

[Paul John]

½ MF per hexside

This is a bit unclear, but this language is used frequently to indicate hexside crossed. I think it is 1.5 MF to bypass one or two hexsides in deep snow.

 

[Doug Leslie]

½ MF per hexside ... if it is hexside crossed, then 1 ½ for two hexside bypassed. If it is hexsides traversed, then 2 MF to bypass two hexsides bypassed. I think the "such units must pay an extra ½ MF per hexside" is ambiguous in this context.

It is 1/2 MF per hexside crossed.

E3.733
A squad is at crest level of a Gully, during Deep Snow. It must expend 3½ MF to move INTO the Gully (Gully: 2 MF, 1 Level down: 1 MF, Deep Snow: ½ MF). Correct?

A. No, the Snow and Deep Snow penalties are assessed per hexside crossed.

 

[STAVKA]

This is a bit unclear, but this language is used frequently to indicate hexside crossed. I think it is 1.5 MF to bypass one or two hexsides in deep snow.

1.5 MF is correct, since a bypassing unit still only cross one hexside, when it bypass along two hexside (within the hex) if the unit would continue its bypass further within the same hex, along 3 or 4 hexside the cost is 2.5 MF.

 

[Larry]

It is 1/2 MF per hexside crossed.

E3.733
A squad is at crest level of a Gully, during Deep Snow. It must expend 3½ MF to move INTO the Gully (Gully: 2 MF, 1 Level down: 1 MF, Deep Snow: ½ MF). Correct?

A. No, the Snow and Deep Snow penalties are assessed per hexside crossed.

ambiguity resolved.

 

[Juan SantaX]

ambiguity resolved.

I do not understand, sorry. How many, 1.5 or 2? I think its not that clear...

 

[Doug Leslie]

I do not understand, sorry. How many, 1.5 or 2? I think its not that clear...

1.5 IMO.

 

[Eagle4ty]

The more I read & think about the situation I believe STAVKA is correct as the moving unit only crosses one hexside, the hexside crossed when it enters the hex to bypass the obstacle. All other MF are spent within the obstacle hex and the unit does not cross any hexsides but simply traverses that hexside(s) inside the obstacle hex. Therefore the moving unit expends only an extra 1/2 MF (for entering the hex) to traverse along one or more hexsides while bypassing the obstacle.

 

[EagleIV]

Given the errata that it is per hexside crossed then it would be 1.5MF to bypass 1 or more hexsides. This should be fixed in the eRulebook.

 

[Russ Isaia]

The more I read & think about the situation I believe STAVKA is correct as the moving unit only crosses one hexside, the hexside crossed when it enters the hex to bypass the obstacle. All other MF are spent within the obstacle hex and the unit does not cross any hexsides but simply traverses that hexside(s) inside the obstacle hex. Therefore the moving unit expends only an extra 1/2 MF (for entering the hex) to traverse along one or more hexsides while bypassing the obstacle.

Curious and curiouser:

E7.24 states that in Ground Snow non-tracked vehicles must expend one extra MP "per hexside crossed/bypassed." E7.33 and E7.331 then state that in Deep Snow, both infantry and vehicles must expend more MF/MP "per hexside." I wonder if the intention wasn't "per hexside crossed/bypassed" just as in E7.24.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Curious and curiouser:

E7.24 states that in Ground Snow non-tracked vehicles must expend one extra MP "per hexside crossed/bypassed." E7.33 and E7.331 then state that in Deep Snow, both infantry and vehicles must expend more MF/MP "per hexside." I wonder if the intention wasn't "per hexside crossed/bypassed" just as in E7.24.

Yes, I looked at that as well but the intent was iffy at best IMHO. It would certainly be worth a Q to Perry as I could see it ruled either way. I'll bet I have played it both ways & never gave it another thought until now as I've played several Deep Snow scenarios.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Yes, I looked at that as well but the intent was iffy at best IMHO. It would certainly be worth a Q to Perry as I could see it ruled either way. I'll bet I have played it both ways & never gave it another thought until now as I've played several Deep Snow scenarios.

It would be strange for the penalty for Deep Snow to be calculated in a different manner than the penalty for Ground Snow. Deep Snow is, well, just deeper Ground Snow! But you are certainly correct that on general principles intent is no basis to resolve a RB question. I'll ask. Does this capture it?

E3.733.

Q. The squad in 3D9 below wants to bypass the Woods in 3C9 and enter 3B9. Deep Snow is in effect. Is the additional MF cost attributable to the Deep Snow

a) 1/2 MF, for the one hexside bypassed, or
b) 1 MF, 1/2 for crossing two hexsides (one on entering C9 and one on entering B9).

Note that E3.733 (and E3.7331) refer to an extra MF cost from Deep Snow "per hexside" whereas E3.724 refers to an extra MF cost "per hexside crossed/bypassed."



*
I focused on this case instead of the D9-C9(in bypass)-B8 case because I think the answer there has to be 3 whether you count the hexsides bypassed or crossed.

 

[Eagle4ty]

It would be strange for the penalty for Deep Snow to be calculated in a different manner than the penalty for Ground Snow. Deep Snow is, well, just deeper Ground Snow! But you are certainly correct that on general principles intent is no basis to resolve a RB question. I'll ask. Does this capture it?

E3.733.

Q. The squad in 3D9 below wants to bypass the Woods in 3C9 and enter 3B9. Deep Snow is in effect. Is the additional MF cost attributable to the Deep Snow

a) 1/2 MF, for the one hexside bypassed, or
b) 1 MF, 1/2 for crossing two hexsides (one on entering C9 and one on entering B9).

Note that E3.733 (and E3.7331) refer to an extra MF cost from Deep Snow "per hexside" whereas E3.724 refers to an extra MF cost "per hexside crossed/bypassed."

View attachment 19730

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I focused on this case instead of the D9-C9(in bypass)-B8 case because I think the answer there has to be 3 whether you count the hexsides bypassed or crossed.

The part that had me wondering was the mention of expenditure of MPs in E3.724 (Vehicular specific rule) and the general (i.e. MF) expenditure noted for E3.733 for infantry & cavalry which fails to note any additional expenditure for bypassing. Added to that is they they thought it important enough to mention bypass in the earlier rule for vehicles but failed to include a similar mention in the latter though its inclusion would have been a simple matter.

• For the question example I would clarify "a)" a bit by stating: "Is it only 1/2 MF for crossing the D9-E9 hexside and no other MF penalty beyond the normal bypass costs in bypassing one or more hexsides?"

This change is necessary I believe because when bypassing one isn't crossing that hexside but merely traversing along the hexside inside the obstacle hex.

• For "b)" I would I would adjust the wording similarly.

Of course JMHO as you got the gist of the conundrum.

 

[Doug Leslie]

It would be strange for the penalty for Deep Snow to be calculated in a different manner than the penalty for Ground Snow. Deep Snow is, well, just deeper Ground Snow! But you are certainly correct that on general principles intent is no basis to resolve a RB question. I'll ask. Does this capture it?

E3.733.

Q. The squad in 3D9 below wants to bypass the Woods in 3C9 and enter 3B9. Deep Snow is in effect. Is the additional MF cost attributable to the Deep Snow

a) 1/2 MF, for the one hexside bypassed, or
b) 1 MF, 1/2 for crossing two hexsides (one on entering C9 and one on entering B9).

Note that E3.733 (and E3.7331) refer to an extra MF cost from Deep Snow "per hexside" whereas E3.724 refers to an extra MF cost "per hexside crossed/bypassed."

View attachment 19730

*
I focused on this case instead of the D9-C9(in bypass)-B8 case because I think the answer there has to be 3 whether you count the hexsides bypassed or crossed.

I think that E3.724 is a red herring since it only deals with vehicular movement. MP costs for VBM are calculated differently than for infantry (it would cost a tracked vehicle 6 MP to reach B8 using VBM and 3 MP to reach B9. It costs infantry 2 MF either way).

The rule that needs to be focused on is E3.9:
t3.9 MF/MP COST ADDITIONS: Any extra MF or MP costs due to weather are added per hexside crossed (or Bypassed), after calculating total cost [EXC: Towing; C10.1].

My view is that the bypass reference is only relevant to vehicular movement.

If the 447 were a tracked vehicle, it costs 5 MP to reach B9 and 9 to reach B8 (6 plus two for two hexsides crossed and 1 for the additional hexside bypassed)

This does require some clarification however given that E7.24 only refers to non-tracked vehicles paying extra for bypass whereas E3.7331 makes no reference to bypass at all.

 

[Russ Isaia]

I think that E3.724 is a red herring since it only deals with vehicular movement. MP costs for VBM are calculated differently than for infantry (it would cost a tracked vehicle 6 MP to reach B8 using VBM and 3 MP to reach B9. It costs infantry 2 MF either way).

The rule that needs to be focused on is E3.9:
t3.9 MF/MP COST ADDITIONS: Any extra MF or MP costs due to weather are added per hexside crossed (or Bypassed), after calculating total cost [EXC: Towing; C10.1].

My view is that the bypass reference is only relevant to vehicular movement.

If the 447 were a tracked vehicle, it costs 5 MP to reach B9 and 9 to reach B8 (6 plus two for two hexsides crossed and 1 for the additional hexside bypassed)

This does require some clarification however given that E7.24 only refers to non-tracked vehicles paying extra for bypass whereas E3.7331 makes no reference to bypass at all.

E3.724 is not a red herring: in an analogous situation (vehicular movement in Ground Snow) the additional cost of movement is per hexside crossed/bypassed. E3.7Q&A confirms the "crossed" part is also applicable to MF expenditure: the only open question is MF expenditure per hexside bypassed.

But thank you for pointing out E3.9; I completely missed that. As it refers to both extra MF or MP costs, it can't be limited to vehicular movement. I am not even sure a Q to Perry is necessary, but as others doubt I will ask (after I digest, with the benefit of sobriety, Eagle4ty's comments).

 

[Doug Leslie]

It is only a red herring insofar as OP was asking a question regarding infantry bypass but you were quite right to point out the contradiction between the rules regarding vehicular movement. It makes no sense that there are additional MP penaties for non-tracked vehicles using VBM in ground snow but not in deep snow. 3.7331 needs to be amended to make it consistent with 3.724 IMO and it is certainly worth sending a Q&A to draw attention to this.
The position with infantry is more ambiguous but it makes sense that there should be an additional MF cost in the very rare instances where a unit continues bypass to the fourth vertice of the bypassed hex (generally it is as cheap to enter the obstacle as to go round it).

 

[Larry]

Trying to synthesize E3.9 parenthetical statement of bypass.

E3.723 does not reference bypass to infantry/cavalry movement during ground or deep snow, just elevation change.
E3.724 does reference extra MP or MF costs for non-tracked vehicles per hexside crossed/bypassed.
E3.733 stated that infantry/cavalry pay an extra 1/2 MF cost per hexside.
E3.734 extra MP or MF costs for tracked (1) non-tracked (2) vehicles per hexside without specification bypass.
E3.752 negates bypass on a drift hexside and does not apply here.
E3.9 imposes the extra MF or MP does per hexside crossed (or Bypassed) after calculating total cost.


The structure suggests that E3.733 is missing /bypassed.
The missing /bypassed in E3.723 and E3.733 appears intentional.
E3.9 instructs the player to calculate the total cost and then impose the snow penalty. In infantry bypass, the total cost is for one or two hexsides -- usually one MF. In vehicular bypass, each hexside is separately calculated, typically two MP per hexside. One MF/MP penalty for each expenditure.

Reading it this way brings the Q&A and the rules into harmony. As Doug quoted:

E3.733
A squad is at crest level of a Gully, during Deep Snow. It must expend 3½ MF to move INTO the Gully (Gully: 2 MF, 1 Level down: 1 MF, Deep Snow: ½ MF). Correct?

A. No, the Snow and Deep Snow penalties are assessed per hexside crossed.

Infantry/cavalry pay per hexside crossed. Vehicles pay per hexside crossed or bypassed. If the bypass hexside always applied, it would not be in parentheses as a reminder of a distinction but in the clear and an affirmative always applicable rule.

As the Bishop used to say, YMMV.