Bypass an CA

Sparafucil3

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Disregard the hex size. I am using large hexes to make things clear. It is the German player MPh. Assume the German vehicle enters the Guns hex in bypass from FF7. May the AT Gun attack the AFV without changing CA. Please cite your rules reference. -- jim
 

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klasmalmstrom

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I think it need to change its CA to attack as Defensive First Fire - per C5.51:

5.51 CA CHANGE: The firer’s CA does not change when using Case E to fire at a target in the same hex—unless firing during the opponent’s MPh as Defensive First Fire, in which case the firer’s CA is changed only as much as is necessary to include the hexside that moving unit used to enter that hex during that MPh. This is the only instance where Case A DRM are applicable with Case E DRM [EXC: VBM; D2.321].
 

Sparafucil3

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I think it need to change its CA to attack as Defensive First Fire - per C5.51:

5.51 CA CHANGE: The firer’s CA does not change when using Case E to fire at a target in the same hex—unless firing during the opponent’s MPh as Defensive First Fire, in which case the firer’s CA is changed only as much as is necessary to include the hexside that moving unit used to enter that hex during that MPh. This is the only instance where Case A DRM are applicable with Case E DRM [EXC: VBM; D2.321].
That was my conclusion as well.

Second question, does your answer change if it is Final Fire? In Final Fire, I believe the shot woudl be allowed. Hit location determines which aspect of the AFV is hit (front, rear, side). -- jim
 

jrv

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By C5.51, during the MPh the CA has to change to include the hexside entered. This would seem to be the FF6/FF7 hexside in your example, so the Gun must turn two vertices during the MPh.

The more interesting question is what happens during a phase other than the MPh. Consider a vehicle in bypass of FF6/FF7. By the C3.2 EX, the entire hex FF6 is within CA. Does the gun have to change? It seems likely that the intent of C.5 & C.5B in particular is that the gun would have to change.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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Second question, does your answer change if it is Final Fire?
Yes, if you wait until Final Fire you don't have to turn the CA - although Case E will be doubled to +4.


In Final Fire, I believe the shot woudl be allowed. Hit location determines which aspect of the AFV is hit (front, rear, side).
Since the vehicle is in bypass, and the hex it is bypassing is in its side VCA/TCA - I believe a hit from in-hex would hit the side.

D2.32:
"...The Target Facing of a hit vs a vehicle in Bypass is based on the hex it originated from (not the target hexside crossed as per normal Target Facing; 3.2); to score a rear hit the shot must have originated from a hex in the target’s rear Target Facing..."

And note that D2.32 is an exception to D3.2.
 

Sparafucil3

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By C5.51, during the MPh the CA has to change to include the hexside entered. This would seem to be the FF6/FF7 hexside in your example, so the Gun must turn two vertices during the MPh.

The more interesting question is what happens during a phase other than the MPh. Consider a vehicle in bypass of FF6/FF7. By the C3.2 EX, the entire hex FF6 is within CA. Does the gun have to change? It seems likely that the intent of C.5 & C.5B in particular is that the gun would have to change.

JR
I brought this up too. It is an interesting conundrum. -- jim
 

jrv

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It looks like a missed subcase. If the vehicle is in bypass of the same hexside of another obstacle in an adjacent hex, C.5B would require the gun to change CA. I think the same thing should apply even though the vehicle is in bypass of the firer's hex. There would still be the case E penalty in one situation vs. the other, but we can put that down to the vertex being a convenient place to trace LOS and not necessarily the true position of the unit in question. I also think the other hex that has to be in LOS has to include the full hexside that is being bypassed, despite the fact that LOS is traced to just the vertex, i.e. you can't choose between the two hexsides that bound the vertex.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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...By the C3.2 EX, the entire hex FF6 is within CA. Does the gun have to change? It seems likely that the intent of C.5 & C.5B in particular is that the gun would have to change.
If the target is in the same hex (even in bypass), I don't think the Gun has to change its CA.
 

jrv

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If the target is in the same hex (even in bypass), I don't think the Gun has to change its CA.
Possibly not by rule, but it feels a bit like finding a rule that allows a Tiger II to drive up a stairwell to the second floor of a building. It might be within the rules but it wouldn't be one of the better rules. If true the gun can fire (without changing CA) at a vehicle on the backside of the building, kill it, retain ROF, then (again without changing CA) fire out the front of the building. The gun would clearly have to change CA if the target were in an adjacent hex in bypass of the same hexside.

JR
 

Sparafucil3

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Possibly not by rule, but it feels a bit like finding a rule that allows a Tiger II to drive up a stairwell to the second floor of a building. It might be within the rules but it wouldn't be one of the better rules. If true the gun can fire (without changing CA) at a vehicle on the backside of the building, kill it, retain ROF, then (again without changing CA) fire out the front of the building. The gun would clearly have to change CA if the target were in an adjacent hex in bypass of the same hexside.

JR
The hex is 40 meters. Maybe he was "in the hex" but along the hex-spine, near the opposite vertex. -- jim
 

jrv

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The hex is 40 meters. Maybe he was "in the hex" but along the hex-spine, near the opposite vertex. -- jim
If the gun gets building TEM it is in a building. If the vehicle is on one side of the building, it probably isn't on the other side of the building, especially with a rowhouse building. It's hard to see how ASL could be that abstract where one side of a building is the same as the other.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Possibly not by rule, but it feels a bit like finding a rule that allows a Tiger II to drive up a stairwell to the second floor of a building.
JR
Well, if the Nazis had gotten their way with building the new world-captial 'Germania' (and flattening much of Berlin for the purpose) their megalomania might have seen such things being possible... :D

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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Well, if the Nazis had gotten their way with building the new world-captial 'Germania' (and flattening much of Berlin for the purpose) their megalomania might have seen such things being possible...
Also, the Germans had the Krummlauf for their Sturmgewehr 44 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krummlauf

Perhaps they developed something like that for their PaKs as well. :)
 

Sparafucil3

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If the gun gets building TEM it is in a building. If the vehicle is on one side of the building, it probably isn't on the other side of the building, especially with a rowhouse building. It's hard to see how ASL could be that abstract where one side of a building is the same as the other.

JR
You've seen the foxhole rules, right? Just checking. -- jim
 
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