Bunkers, Cost.

Tim Niesen

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#1
Some months ago on this Forum, a member pointed out that a Pillbox when transformed into a bunker, functions like a Trench in the same hex. And that another trench is placed in an Adjacent hex. I am assuming that both trenches could be placed on the board, which allows the player owning the bunker to differentiate where in the pillbox trench complex his units are located. Now when purchasing a bunker I assume that you pay for only one trench. Right? Also the pillbox and trench complex has two locations, and the trench units are not involved with the stacking capacity of the pillbox portion of the bunker complex. Right? Tim
 

klasmalmstrom

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#2
"purchasing a bunker" - this sounds like you are asking something about a specific HASL?

Units in a Trench (adjacent or in the same hex) as pillbox are in a different Location than those inside the pillbox, so they only affect stacking in their own Location.
 

Binchois

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#3
Some months ago on this Forum, a member pointed out that a Pillbox when transformed into a bunker, functions like a Trench in the same hex. And that another trench is placed in an Adjacent hex. I am assuming that both trenches could be placed on the board, which allows the player owning the bunker to differentiate where in the pillbox trench complex his units are located. Now when purchasing a bunker I assume that you pay for only one trench. Right? Also the pillbox and trench complex has two locations, and the trench units are not involved with the stacking capacity of the pillbox portion of the bunker complex. Right? Tim
Not quite. A Bunker is not a trench. It is a pillbox that has been set up in the same hex as a trench - or in a hex Accessible to a trench (B30.8).

An Accessible hex does not need to contain an actual trench, in which case, there is no separate trench Location usable in the bunker's hex (don't place an extra one there!). Units in such a bunker, however, have the ability to move/advance directly into an adjacent trench - a nice advantage.
 

Tim Niesen

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#4
Okay, I must have misunderstood. So there is no trench in same hex. We have a situation where that there is only one hex Y22 on OB map, which has a LOS to the village below the hill. The Adjacent hex Z22 is a crag, so the trench cannot be put there. We want to put a 50 cal HMG there too, but outside the pillbox portion of the bunker complex. We have only so many DSP fortification points to spend. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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#5
May I put a foxhole in the same hex as the bunker? I assume that this would solve the issue. Tim
 

Binchois

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#6
Okay, I must have misunderstood. So there is no trench in same hex. We have a situation where that there is only one hex Y22 on OB map, which has a LOS to the village below the hill. The Adjacent hex Z22 is a crag, so the trench cannot be put there. We want to put a 50 cal HMG there too, but outside the pillbox portion of the bunker complex. We have only so many DSP fortification points to spend. Tim
May I put a foxhole in the same hex as the bunker? I assume that this would solve the issue. Tim
I am confused about what you are trying to do...

First, neither a bunker/pillbox nor a trench/foxhole can be placed in a Crag hex (B27.1, B30.1).

Also, a foxhole and a trench cannot be placed in the same Location (B27.51).

As for a foxhole plus a pillbox/bunker in the same hex... B27.51 would deny a foxhole in a hex with the standard "Bunker on top of a Trench". But I don't see any restrictions to placing a foxhole with a regular pillbox or with a bunker without trench (that is, accessible to an adjacent trench). A problem with this setup would be that units could not move directly between the foxhole and pillbox/bunker, but would have to first exit the one, then enter the other.
 

Swiftandsure

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#7
The rule speaks by itself, I would say.
COWTRA.
B30.8 BUNKERS: A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench [EXC: the entry/exit restrictions given in 30.42, 30.44 and 30.6 still apply].
 

Tim Niesen

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#8
I do understand that a crag hex cannot have a fortification in it. Nor any Gun except a mortar or perhaps one of those 37* SW. That is the issue. Only clear terrain Y22 has LOS into the village. The Adjacent hex Z22 has the same LOS but it is a Craig hex. We could spend the DSP points and build a two capacity pillbox or Bunker, but we have many needs for the 40 fortification points that we wish to spend. We may just have to spend 60 fortification points, but this campaign game allows the players to accumulate DSP points (Each of such points are 20 fortification points.) If we put the trench in Z23 there is no LOS into the village. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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#9
Reading the rule again it seems to indicate that the trench can be either in the same hex with the pillbox or an Adjacent hex. My argument to Don is that a one capacity Bunker is cheaper than two capacity pillbox. Our desire is to have the 50 cal HMG in the Trench with a LOS to the village below the position. That also allows it to use its AA capacity. Spending the least amount of fortification points is our other goal here. Tim
 

FourDeuceMF

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#10
Then what you're wanting to do can be achieved by buying a 1-squad Pillbox, and a Trench. Put whomever you want (or no one, for that matter) in the PB, put your .50cal & it's manning infantry in the trench. Both in the same hex. Problem solved.
 

Swiftandsure

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#11
Reading the rule again it seems to indicate that the trench can be either in the same hex with the pillbox or an Adjacent hex.
Of course. And a unit in the PB (Bunker) can directly move into a Trench which is in its hex or in an adjacent, accessible one.
 

Tim Niesen

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#12
Sounds good to us. My error was I thought that there were two trench counters. I guess that you could have the best of both worlds by simply buying two trenches. One for the 50 Cal and another to retreat into if you are broken. Tim
 

Swiftandsure

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#13
Brokies in a Trench can also rout into an accessible Bunker - if there is enough room for them.
 

Tim Niesen

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#14
We understand, but the difference is routing out of LOS of your opponent's units. Therefore, being able to rally without the penalty of desperation morale. We have decided to spend the third DSP point (each DSP point has twenty points of fortification.) Don is a spender. Tim
 

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#15
We understand, but the difference is routing out of LOS of your opponent's units. Therefore, being able to rally without the penalty of desperation morale. We have decided to spend the third DSP point (each DSP point has twenty points of fortification.) Don is a spender. Tim
DM DRM applies, even if the broken unit is out of enemy LOS.
And if nothing makes a broken unit regain DM status while it is in enemy LOS, the DM DRM will not apply.
Enemy LOS is not a factor to apply the DM DRM or not - excepted if the broken unit is also in open ground and normal range of a known enemy unit.
See A10.62.
 

Tim Niesen

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#16
Yes Robin, Don and I understand this issue, but it has been a common practice since the early days of the precursor game to fire at DM units to keep them in DM status so that they are unlikely to be able to rally. Even an attack by a LMG at its extended range will be sufficient to maintain the broken units DM status. Therefore, the advantage of having another trench counter to pull broken units out of enemy LOS. Tim
 

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#17
... A problem with this setup would be that units could not move directly between the foxhole and pillbox/bunker, but would have to first exit the one, then enter the other.
That is not how I read B27.13 and B27.4, which mention pillboxes explicitly, unless you just meant paying the extra 1 MF combined with the entry COT cost. The ASLRB has many twists and turns, though, so clarification on this would be welcome.

Enjoy, Joshua
 

jrv

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#18
That is not how I read B27.13 and B27.4, which mention pillboxes explicitly, unless you just meant paying the extra 1 MF combined with the entry COT cost. The ASLRB has many twists and turns, though, so clarification on this would be welcome.
I believe you are saying that a unit in a pillbox can move directly to a foxhole and vice versa during the MPh. Per B30.33, "The MF expenditure to enter or exit a pillbox Location (30.4) is a separate action and cannot be combined with any other MF expenditure [EXC: during the RtPh; 30.41]." That means in particular the one MF expenditure to move out from/move under a foxhole cannot be combined with the expenditure to enter the pillbox. To move from the pillbox, a unit make one expenditure to exit the pillbox [B30.4] then make another expenditure to move under the foxhole [B27.4], and similarly for the reverse.

JR
 

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#19
I believe you are saying that a unit in a pillbox can move directly to a foxhole and vice versa during the MPh. Per B30.33, "The MF expenditure to enter or exit a pillbox Location (30.4) is a separate action and cannot be combined with any other MF expenditure [EXC: during the RtPh; 30.41]." That means in particular the one MF expenditure to move out from/move under a foxhole cannot be combined with the expenditure to enter the pillbox. To move from the pillbox, a unit make one expenditure to exit the pillbox [B30.4] then make another expenditure to move under the foxhole [B27.4], and similarly for the reverse.

JR
Thanks - that is very clear. That was what I missed during my scan of the PB section.

Enjoy, Joshua
 

Swiftandsure

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#20
Yes Robin, Don and I understand this issue, but it has been a common practice since the early days of the precursor game to fire at DM units to keep them in DM status so that they are unlikely to be able to rally. Even an attack by a LMG at its extended range will be sufficient to maintain the broken units DM status. Therefore, the advantage of having another trench counter to pull broken units out of enemy LOS. Tim
Not any fire from an enemy unit will make the broken unit DM again. It must be "enough FP (taking the possibility of Cowering into account) to possibly inflict at least a NMC result on the target" (A10.62).
So an LMG firing at double range (= 1 FP) vs. a broken unit in a Trench (+2 DRM) won't create a DM, unless the firing unit is immune to cowering - i.e. a 1FP attack of 2 would generate a NMC, but only if cowering is NA.

Note too that routing to another Trench won't always move the broken unit out of enemy LOS.