Bunker - Withdrawl - 30.6

SSlunt

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Assume a CC in a pill box- Trench hex. - The defending player has units in the Trench and a unit in the bunker.
The Attacker announces that he is going to attack everyone. The defending unit roll ambush - and withdraws the unit in the trench - Can the remaining Attacking unit attack the units in the pill box because there are no longer any defending units int the hex.
 

jrv

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I would guess not. The pillbox was not figured in the original ambush roll. Do the units in the pillbox get the ambush? Do you roll for ambush again? Does the drm for the pillbox suddenly apply, possibly cancelling the previous ambush? But it is an odd situation that I would suggest submitting for q&a.

JR
 

aneil1234

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Guys

Reading 30.6, Im not sure it was right in the first place. The last lines or 3 of 30.6 says you can't CC a unit in the PB if there is a friendly ground unit OUTSIDE the PB in the hex
So you can't attack both the trench contents and the PB contents at the same time
Pretty sure thats why the rule is written this way.

So my answer would be. He attacked guy in trench. The ambush happens as per above, the guy withdraws back into the PB.
AND then NEXT time, The NEW CC is against the PB and ALL its contents
 

jrv

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Reading 30.6, Im not sure it was right in the first place. The last lines or 3 of 30.6 says you can't CC a unit in the PB if there is a friendly ground unit OUTSIDE the PB in the hex
So you can't attack both the trench contents and the PB contents at the same time
Pretty sure thats why the rule is written this way.

So my answer would be. He attacked guy in trench. The ambush happens as per above, the guy withdraws back into the PB.
AND then NEXT time, The NEW CC is against the PB and ALL its contents
That is true, but you are saying exactly what the OP is saying, only saying it "backwards." The situation was, there was an enemy unit inside and outside the pillbox before the ambush dr. There was a friendly unit outside the pillbox too. The ambush dr is made, involving the friendly unit and the enemy unit outside the pillbox only, and the enemy side wins. The enemy unit outside the pillbox withdraws (not necessarily into the pillbox). Now after the ambush resolution there is only an enemy unit in the pillbox, and a friendly unit outside the pillbox. That seems to satisfy B30.6. No CC attacks have been made yet. Can the friendly unit outside and the enemy unit inside make their attacks after the ambush resolution despite the fact that before the ambush resolution CC between them was impossible by B30.6? I lean towards reading the rules as technically allowing it even though I don't think that is what should be allowed. The unit inside the pillbox was not involved in the ambush dr, so it should not be eligible for CC that turn. Or perhaps ambush is re-rolled based on the new situation.

Similarly if CC were sequential for some reason and all the enemy units outside the pillbox were eliminated/captured/withdrew, would the friendly units outside the pillbox now be able to attack the enemy units in the pillbox even though the pillbox did not participate in the original ambush dr? Might be a good reason to drive a vehicle into the location. I could see this being ruled either way.

JR
 
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Binchois

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I think the ASOP resolves this by including the Ambush dr as part of that Location's CCPh. A pillbox and its own hex do not share the same Location. However, CC against a pillbox is never to/from the same Location - so in this very narrow sense they can be considered as if the same Location.

The original advance by the ATTACKER placed a CC counter on top of the hex, but only included the enemy and friendly units that were outside of the Pillbox (or Bunker in this case). Presumably, the DEFENDER's ambush dr did not receive the Pillbox +2, since the units inside were not included as part of the CC.

So, once the Location's CCPh begins, the CC is only between units engaged outside of the Pillbox. At this point, it seems like the ASOP has to come into play here. This guide states you resolve each Location's CCPh separately and then move on to the next Location. The ATTACKER's units outside of the Pillbox (and possibly a DEFENDER's unit which just withdrew INTO the Pillbox) have already participated in their Location's CCPh. It seems incorrect to give them a second CCPh.

The ambiguity here is that at the end of the ATTACKER's CCPh, there is now a DEFENDER's Location that has yet to resolve a CC. But to allow the DEFENDER to initiate a new CC seems odd to begin with, especially against a Location which already resolved its CCPh and which typically - as least in that narrow sense - resolves its CCs as if it were the same Location.

IMO, the units should remain in the hex without further CC (though not locked in Melee since they are for all other purposes not in the same Location).
 

aneil1234

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JR
In the original question SSlunt above he stated the attacker was attacking "Everything", and that to me (i.e how I read it as) is BOTH inside and outside the PB
What I said is that 30.6 says you can't do that
So not sure why its "Backwards"

B30.6
"A Unit in a PB cannot be attacked in CC, if their is a friendly ground unit(s) in the hex outside" (edited a little without the exceptions listed there - but the guts of the rule are here)

The guy in the trench is outside ?
That's all I was trying to point out ?

So attacks him first and then NEXT time (next CC phase I assume) the guys in the PB.... which would now include the guy that WAS in the trench

I can't see how a unit that lost a CC Ambush can then in the same phase then go ! Ok I'm going to attack again cause its now "Empty"
That would be 2 bites of the cherry ?
talk about bloody cheesy/sleazy lol
:LOL::LOL::LOL::eek:

IMO.
Completely agree with you..... The guy in the PB is just sitting there "Staring out the vision slit and wondering what the hell is going on"
cause he's not in the fight (Yet lol!)


And just read Binchois's reply too
Which is what I think is the right answer
 

jrv

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The original advance by the ATTACKER placed a CC counter on top of the hex, but only included the enemy and friendly units that were outside of the Pillbox (or Bunker in this case).
As a minor technical point, an advance does not call for placement of a CC counter. I don't think that affects the rest of what you said.

JR
 
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jrv

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JR
In the original question SSlunt above he stated the attacker was attacking "Everything", and that to me (i.e how I read it as) is BOTH inside and outside the PB
What I said is that 30.6 says you can't do that
You are correct: he did say "everything". That is outside the sequence for CC, and I didn't notice he wasn't following the sequence. You don't announce the attacks until after ambush is rolled. But even if you follow the sequence there is still potentially a problem as I said.

JR
 
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