Bunker Questions

[MrHonus]

Given two ADJACENT Bunkers:

1. Can units move directly between the two pillboxes without expending movement factors to enter/exit the trench (and being exposed to fire in the trench)?
2. Given an SSR to the effect that Trenches are revealed as per E1.16 (DN SSR I.4), is the trench revealed at the same time as the Pillbox?

 

[ScottRomanowski]

1) No, I'm certain that units would have to move from pillbox #1 to the Trench (1MF), then from the Trench to pillbox #2. B30.8 lets you move units between the Pillbox and the Trench as if the Pillbox were also a Trench. It doesn't make the Pillbox a Trench for purposes of determining if another Pillbox is a Bunker.

 

[Larry]

B30.8 suggests that the combination of counters represents one fortification ... a bunker.

A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter’s hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/ advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench

The second sentence describes the pillbox and trench in different hexes. An array of two pillboxes and a trench in neither hex but adjacent to both makes them all interconnected "as if the bunker were also [] trench[es]." The trench counter in one hex allows a 1 MF move/AM/advance between the two bunkers as if they were both trenches. The question describes two bunkers so there is a trench counter in one of the hexes or in a hex accessible to both.

 

[EagleIV]

The section you quote says you can move from the Bunker to the TRENCH, not another Bunker. B30.8 requires that you end your MPh MF expenditure IN the trench when leaving the first Bunker. After DF you can then continue moving to the second Bunker assuming you are able to do so. Each move requires 1MF.

In the RtPh and APh it is possible to make the move for a total of 2MF.

 

[EagleIV]

B30.8 suggests that the combination of counters represents one fortification ... a bunker.

Actually only the Pillbox is a Bunker, the Trench is required to turn the Pillbox into a Bunker, but the Trench is not part of the Bunker.

 

[Larry]

The section you quote says you can move from the Bunker to the TRENCH, not another Bunker. B30.8 requires that you end your MPh MF expenditure IN the trench when leaving the first Bunker. After DF you can then continue moving to the second Bunker assuming you are able to do so. Each move requires 1MF.

In the RtPh and APh it is possible to make the move for a total of 2MF.
======
Actually only the Pillbox is a Bunker, the Trench is required to turn the Pillbox into a Bunker, but the Trench is not part of the Bunker.

It requires a trench in one of seven hexes to convert the pillbox into a bunker which remains a pillbox except that it is also a trench for some purposes ... as if the bunker were a trench. Moving from the bunker to the trench as if the bunker were a trench does not address the situation where the pillboxes are in hexes A and B and the trench is accessible to both in hex C. What is the cost of moving from A to B? 1 MF. Both pillboxes are considered trenches for that limited purpose. Now put the trench in one of the two PB hexes, does that make a difference? Only if you want to move from the bunker to the trench for 1 MF. But the unit does not have to enter the trench. For movement purposes, the unit is already in a trench and can move directly to the other bunker treated as a trench for that purpose.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I'm afraid I have to disagree.

B30.8 A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter’s hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench...

The first sentence specifies when a pillbox becomes a "bunker". It requires a trench in the same or an Accessible hex. The second sentence says a unit may move etc. from a bunker to "such a trench". "Such a trench" means the trench(es) that made the pillbox a bunker. Imagine a pillbox in 1A1, a trench in B1, and another pillbox in A2. The trench makes both pillboxes bunkers. A unit in bunker A1 may move etc. to the trench in B1 -- that trench is "such a trench", a trench that makes the pillbox a bunker -- as if the bunker was a trench. A unit in bunker A1 cannot move to bunker A2 as if the bunker were a trench because the pillbox is not a trench. The pillbox in A2 did not make the pillbox in A1 a bunker. I don't think anything would change if the trench were in A1 instead of B1; when moving from one bunker, the other bunker is not "such a trench" that made the pillbox a bunker.

A bunker being considered the same as a trench for some purposes does not mean it is considered the same as a trench for other purposes. Otherwise if there were one trench in 1A1, and pillboxes in A2, A3, and A4 by chain reaction all the pillboxes would be bunkers: A1 is a bunker, consider it a trench, A2 is a bunker, consider that a trench, A3 is a bunker. This is obviously wrong, so a bunker is not considered a trench for making another pillbox a bunker, so it cannot be "such a trench" for the special movement ability.

So the unit would have to move from one bunker to the trench (1MF), survive D1F, then could move into the other bunker (2MF total).

 

[Larry]

If that is the case, then the unit could never assault move from a bunker to an adjacent (not same hex) location other than a trench in another hex. A1 and A2 then would not be ADJACENT even if both are ADJACENT to the trench in B1. I think I understand the syntax now.

 

[von Marwitz]

If that is the case, then the unit could never assault move from a bunker to an adjacent (not same hex) location other than a trench in another hex. A1 and A2 then would not be ADJACENT even if both are ADJACENT to the trench in B1. I think I understand the syntax now.

Yes. This is what the rules say, I believe.

von Marwitz

 

[EagleIV]

If that is the case, then the unit could never assault move from a bunker to an adjacent (not same hex) location other than a trench in another hex. A1 and A2 then would not be ADJACENT even if both are ADJACENT to the trench in B1. I think I understand the syntax now.

Don't forget that the only reason to use AM is to avoid FFNAM and FFNAM doesn't apply to units moving through connecting Trenches (B27.54).

 

[von Marwitz]

Don't forget that the only reason to use AM is to avoid FFNAM and FFNAM doesn't apply to units moving through connecting Trenches (B27.54).

And it gets even better: Per B27.54 last sentence, they don't even lose Concealment while moving along a Trench.

von Marwitz

 

[Larry]

Don't forget that the only reason to use AM is to avoid FFNAM and FFNAM doesn't apply to units moving through connecting Trenches (B27.54).

doesn't solve the advance problem.

 

[von Marwitz]

doesn't solve the advance problem.

It requires a trench in one of seven hexes to convert the pillbox into a bunker which remains a pillbox except that it is also a trench for some purposes ... as if the bunker were a trench.

I believe that @ScottRomanowski is right.

The Bunker is a Bunker. It is not a Trench.
A Bunker is merely treated as if a Trench for puposes of moving from it to a Trench.
A Bunker is not treated as if a Trench for purposes of moving from Bunker to Bunker.

Thus, two adjacent Bunkers are not ADJACENT, and therefore no Advance/AM from Bunker to Bunker directly.

This would even be true if you had two Bunkers in the same hex with different CAs and a Trench in my opinion, because the Trench is in the separate Location in the hex outside the Bunker(s), which means that both Bunkers are ADJACENT to the Trench (and the other terrain) in their hex but still merely adjacent to each other.

von Marwitz

 

[Actionjick]

See my post #184 in the Altering Songs thread for an alternate view of this issue.