Bunker question

Vinnie

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No it may not:


30.8 BUNKERS: A Pillbox coutner in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench [EXC: the entry/exit restrictions given in 30.42, 30.44 and 30.6 still apply].

30.42 A unit may not move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC into a pillbox Location if an enemy ground unit [EXC: Disrupted; subterranean; Unarmed; unarmed vehicle with no PRC] exists in the same hex outside the pillbox [EXC: RtPh/APh entrance via a tunnel (8.6)]. See also 30.44 and 30.6
 

JimWhite

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No it may not: 30.8 BUNKERS: A Pillbox coutner in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench [EXC: the entry/exit restrictions given in 30.42, 30.44 and 30.6 still apply]. 30.42 A unit may not move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC into a pillbox Location if an enemy ground unit [EXC: Disrupted; subterranean; Unarmed; unarmed vehicle with no PRC] exists in the same hex outside the pillbox [EXC: RtPh/APh entrance via a tunnel (8.6)]. See also 30.44 and 30.6
That is how I was reading it too...but as you mention 30.42 says "A unit may not move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC into a Pillbox location if an enemy ground unit...". But in this case...the Japanese unit is not advancing into a Pillbox location that contains an enemy unit outside of it. That is where I am a bit unclear.
 

klasmalmstrom

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That is how I was reading it too...but as you mention 30.42 says "A unit may not move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC into a Pillbox location if an enemy ground unit...". But in this case...the Japanese unit is not advancing into a Pillbox location that contains an enemy unit outside of it. That is where I am a bit unclear.
I think it is the exit restrictions of B30.6 that prevents it - not anything in B30.42 since that rule is only about entry restrictions.

B30.6:
"...A unit inside a pillbox may not move/rout/Withdraw-from-CC out of the pillbox if there is an enemy ground unit [EXC: Disrupted; subterranean; Unarmed; unarmored vehicle with no PRC] in the same hex; it can only advance out of the pillbox and must halt in the pillbox hex [EXC: MPh/RtPh exit via a tunnel; 8.61-.62]."
 

JimWhite

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B30.6: "...A unit inside a pillbox may not move/rout/Withdraw-from-CC out of the pillbox if there is an enemy ground unit [EXC: Disrupted; subterranean; Unarmed; unarmored vehicle with no PRC] in the same hex; it can only advance out of the pillbox and must halt in the pillbox hex [EXC: MPh/RtPh exit via a tunnel; 8.61-.62]."
Wow...things make a lot more sense when one reads the entire rule...:nuts:
 

von Marwitz

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This thread is an old one and the picture has been lost during the forum update. Still it seems to be the closest one to my problem:

Can a squad IN a Trench ADJACENT to a Bunker advance INTO the Bunker to engage in CC with an enemy unit within if there is no other enemy unit in that hex outside of that same Bunker?

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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As B30.42 states: A unit may not move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC into a pillbox Location if an enemy ground unit [EXC: Disrupted; subterranean; Unarmed; unarmored vehicle with no PRC] exists in the same hex outside the pillbox [EXC: RtPh/APh entrance via a tunnel (8.6)]. See also 30.44 and 30.6.
 

von Marwitz

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What I mean is the following situation:

Pillbox.jpg

"B30.8 BUNKERS: A Pillbox coutner in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench [EXC: the entry/exit restrictions given in 30.42, 30.44 and 30.6 still apply]."

B30.42 states: A unit may not move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC into a pillbox Location if an enemy ground unit [EXC: Disrupted; subterranean; Unarmed; unarmored vehicle with no PRC] exists in the same hex outside the pillbox [EXC: RtPh/APh entrance via a tunnel (8.6)]. See also 30.44 and 30.6.

"B30.44 Infantry (even if berserk) may never enter a pillbox Location that contains enemy Infantry, not even via Infantry OVR. ..."


So per B30.8 basically a unit may advance from within a Trench directly into a Pillbox. No surprises so far. B30.42 seems to say that if no enemy unit is present outside of the Bunker direct advance INTO (and not merely on top of) the enemy occupied Bunker is still not possible due to B30.44. Is that correct? Or does B30.44 not apply because we have a Bunker instead of a Pillbox?

Follow up question:

Pillbox2.jpg

This time, the Japanese squad will move through the Tunnel beneath the Pillbox under a Sewer counter to emerge concealed during the APh. Due to the B30.42 EXC, it may advance out of the Tunnel into the Pillbox despite the presence of an enemy unit in the same hex but outside the Pillbox Location.

However, since there is another unit IN the Pillbox itself, does B30.44 kick in?
I do not believe so, because B30.44 speaks of Pillboxes and not Bunkers. And there is

"B8.61 MOVEMENT: Only Good-Order/dummy Infantry of the owning side may enter a tunnel during the MPh. A unit may move into a tunnel from one entrance Location at the start of its MPh by being placed beneath a "Sewer ?" counter in the opposite entrance hex at the cost of all its MF, and must advance out that entrance concealed during the subsequent APh (even if that Location is occupied by enemy units and is Fortified but would instead be eliminated if the opposite entrance were an enemy-occupied pillbox)."

Instead, it appears it would advance out but be killed immediatetly.

On the other hand B30.44 and B8.61 seem to contradict each other, the former preventing entry in the first place, while the latter seems to allow entry (though at the cost of immediate elimination).

It might be the language barrier in combination with a knot of cross-references that prevents me from grokking this. So I'd be glad for any help straightening this out.

TIA,
von Marwitz
 

jrv

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B30.8. There can never, ever be units of opposite sides within a pillbox.

I don't see how B30.44 prevents entry of a tunnel, even if the opposite end is an enemy-occupied pillbox. The tunnel location is not the pillbox location, just as a sewer location is not the same as the location it is beneath.

JR
 

Robin Reeve

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There is no exception to B30.44, even from a Trench into a Bunker.
 

Brian W

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B30.8. There can never, ever be units of opposite sides within a pillbox.
JR
How about a SMC and its prisoner squad? Or a hs and its prisoner hs?
 

jrv

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How about a SMC and its prisoner squad? Or a hs and its prisoner hs?
A prisoner is not an enemy unit. It may not be moved separately from its guard. A prisoner is more like a SW. As best I can tell, even an escaping prisoner is not an enemy unit, although it is capable of unit-like actions. An unarmed unit is a unit, but it is also not a prisoner.

If you spend some time working at it, I think it is possible to end up with a situation where a friendly unit and an enemy unit should be in the same pillbox at the same time. This would involve escaping prisoners re-arming. Since B30.44 categorically states this may not happen, it's not clear how this would be resolved.

[Using a pillbox with a stacking limit of three avoids issues with trying to cram units and prisoners into a pillbox.]

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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If you spend some time working at it, I think it is possible to end up with a situation where a friendly unit and an enemy unit should be in the same pillbox at the same time. This would involve escaping prisoners re-arming. Since B30.44 categorically states this may not happen, it's not clear how this would be resolved.
The pillbox (and its contents) would be sucked into a vortex and transported to a board on one of the adjacent tables (determine randomly if more than one such table exists). That way, it becomes the people playing at that table problem. Place a Shellhole counter on the orignal board where the pillbox was. :)
 

jrv

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The pillbox (and its contents) would be sucked into a vortex and transported to a board on one of the adjacent tables (determine randomly if more than one such table exists). That way, it becomes the people playing at that table problem. Place a Shellhole counter on the orignal board where the pillbox was. :)
Shellhole? I thought that was what the Collapsed Ice counter was for, torn spots in the time-space-boardgame continuum.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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Shellhole? I thought that was what the Collapsed Ice counter was for, torn spots in the time-space-boardgame continuum.
Correct, but only if Deep Snow is in effect, and/or if Pillbox had been Manhandled onto a frozen Water Obstacle.
 

von Marwitz

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The pillbox (and its contents) would be sucked into a vortex and transported to a board on one of the adjacent tables (determine randomly if more than one such table exists). That way, it becomes the people playing at that table problem. Place a Shellhole counter on the orignal board where the pillbox was. :)
Would you believe it!

It was at last Grenadier that I have overheard muffled wispers of a new secret German wunderwaffe in the ASL arsenal: The SW-sized portable black hole! Until now, I have suspected it inconspiciously hidden on the backside of some DM counters - after all the units under DM seem to disappear just so often. But maybe I have to turn my gaze elsewhere to find out about this mysterious weapon... :dontknow


von Marwitz
 

jrv

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It was at last Grenadier that I have overheard muffled wispers of a new secret German wunderwaffe in the ASL arsenal: The SW-sized portable black hole! Until now, I have suspected it inconspiciously hidden on the backside of some DM counters - after all the units under DM seem to disappear just so often. But maybe I have to turn my gaze elsewhere to find out about this mysterious weapon... :dontknow
I believe that this "weapon" is called "eine Katze" auf Deutsch: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/partisan-question.127646/#post-1831059

JR
 
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