BU H/T in bypass

[geezer]

What is the procedure for a squad in level one of a building firing at a BU halftrack bypassing its buidling?

The way I read it, the squad attacks the H/T with PBF as if it were unarmoured (D5.311+A7.308)

If H/T is destroyed, no collateral attack applies
If H/T is not destroyed/immobilized, the crew and passengers undergo a general collateral attack with TPBF and only a +1 CE DRM using same DR (A7.211 & D5.31+6.61)
If H/T is immobilized and crew pass TC, then crew+passengers suffer general collateral attack as above (If TC is failed, then only remaining passsengers suffer this general collateral attack)

Is this correct?

Another question, this one regarding A7.212. In the same situation as above, an enemy squad then enter the ground floor of the building (assuming H/T survives any attack). Can the squad in the upper level of building fire at it during the opponents Mph? If not, can it fire at it during his DFPh, attacking both the H/T and enemy squad becasue they are in the same location?

The wording in rule A7.212 is a bit ambigous. The rule itself seems to limit attacks to certain units, whereas the example seems to restrict attacks to certain locations.

 

[jrv]

What is the procedure for a squad in level one of a building firing at a BU halftrack bypassing its buidling?

The way I read it, the squad attacks the H/T with PBF as if it were unarmoured (D5.311+A7.308)

If H/T is destroyed, no collateral attack applies
If H/T is not destroyed/immobilized, the crew and passengers undergo a general collateral attack with TPBF and only a +1 CE DRM using same DR (A7.211 & D5.31+6.61)
If H/T is immobilized and crew pass TC, then crew+passengers suffer general collateral attack as above (If TC is failed, then only remaining passsengers suffer this general collateral attack)

Is this correct?

I think, per the q&a below, the collateral occurs first. If the vehicle is destroyed, crew survival occurs normally, and there is no collateral attack. If the vehicle is not destroyed, the collateral attack occurs, then everyone takes their immobilization TC.

C1.55, D.8, & D5.5 A CE StuG is attacked by OBA resulting in a K/3 (hull hit - immobilization) versus the AFV and a 2MC versus the CE crew. Does the Immobilization TC take place before the collateral attack versus the CE crew?
A. The collateral attack occurs first.

Another question, this one regarding A7.212. In the same situation as above, an enemy squad then enter the ground floor of the building (assuming H/T survives any attack). Can the squad in the upper level of building fire at it during the opponents Mph? If not, can it fire at it during his DFPh, attacking both the H/T and enemy squad becasue they are in the same location?

The wording in rule A7.212 is a bit ambigous. The rule itself seems to limit attacks to certain units, whereas the example seems to restrict attacks to certain locations.

I think the upper-level squad must include the halftrack in any attack but any other units in the location would be affected by a general collateral attack (as PBF). I agree it's not clear, and a Q&A might be in order.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

I think the crew are treated as being unarmoured not the vehicle so small arms fire will not destroy the vehicle.
If the crew fails a morale check they break rather than stun, if they get a k or KIA result, they die.

 

[Vinnie]

If an enemy squad enters the ground level they can be fired at. The ht will not be subject to collateral attack at this point as they are no longer moving.
If the attack is made during defensive fire, then all vulnerable units in the location will be affected by IFE. If the htis targeted by ordnance, then onky it and it's vulnerable PRC will be affected.

 

[jrv]

I think the crew are treated as being unarmoured not the vehicle so small arms fire will not destroy the vehicle.
If the crew fails a morale check they break rather than stun, if they get a k or KIA result, they die.

If an OT vehicle is attacked with elevation advantage or airburst, it is attacked as if an unarmored vehicle [D5.311]. The crew is attacked as if in a sort-of unarmored vehicle in that they still get whatever reduced CE DRM applies. Such an attack gets no Stun/STUN results. Instead normal IFT results apply as if the crew was in a soft vehicle

JR

 

[jrv]

If an enemy squad enters the ground level they can be fired at. The ht will not be subject to collateral attack at this point as they are no longer moving.

Per A7.212, "Whenever a unit is eligible for TPBF vs Known enemy units, it can attack only those units." The squad at level one is eligible for TPBF vs the halftrack. From that I would conclude that the squad cannot attack the enemy infantry without attacking the halftrack, as the attack would only be PBF. If it attacks the halftrack (in DFPh), the infantry would be attacked as collateral fire, and that would be legal.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

If an OT vehicle is attacked with elevation advantage or airburst, it is attacked as if an unarmored vehicle [D5.311]. The crew is attacked as if in a sort-of unarmored vehicle in that they still get whatever reduced CE DRM applies. Such an attack gets no Stun/STUN results. Instead normal IFT results apply as if the crew was in a soft vehicle

JR

Thsts what I was saying (I think!) I just wanted to emphasise tgatbit is the crew that is treated as being in an unarmoured vehicle, not the vehicle itself so it is possible to kill the crew but not possible to destroy the vehicle with small arms.

 

[Vinnie]

Per A7.212, "Whenever a unit is eligible for TPBF vs Known enemy units, it can attack only those units." The squad at level one is eligible for TPBF vs the halftrack. From that I would conclude that the squad cannot attack the enemy infantry without attacking the halftrack, as the attack would only be PBF. If it attacks the halftrack (in DFPh), the infantry would be attacked as collateral fire, and that would be legal.

JR

Nice catch!

 

[jrv]

Thsts what I was saying (I think!) I just wanted to emphasise tgatbit is the crew that is treated as being in an unarmoured vehicle, not the vehicle itself so it is possible to kill the crew but not possible to destroy the vehicle with small arms.

I said just the opposite. The vehicle is attacked and destroyed as an unarmored vehicle. Per D5.311, "If an OT AFV's crew would receive a CE DRM reduced by Elevation-Effects/Air-Bursts to < its normal CE DRM, that vehicle is instead treated as as unarmored." If small arms have elevation advantage, they can be used to destroy an OT vehicle.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

I said just the opposite. The vehicle is attacked and destroyed as an unarmored vehicle. Per D5.311, "If an OT AFV's crew would receive a CE DRM reduced by Elevation-Effects/Air-Bursts to < its normal CE DRM, that vehicle is instead treated as as unarmored." If small arms have elevation advantage, they can be used to destroy an OT vehicle.

JR

Okay, playing this wrong too....

 

[jrv]

Okay, playing this wrong too....

This is part of the reason that sleaze-freeze isn't quite as bad as it might seem. A squad possessing a MG on an upper level can fire its inherent down at twelve FP flat, killing a "soft" halftrack on a seven or less. It might also use the MG too, which will often make the attack at least a twenty-four FP flat. Per a Q&A fire at a bypass vehicle does *not* restrict the MG CA to vertical (but the restricted CA must include the hexside that was bypassed). Sleaze-freeze by an OT AFV (most likely a halftrack) is still an option, but it is a fairly risky one unless there are mitigating factors (e.g. SMOKE, the defender is already marked with First/Final Fire, MG possessed by halfsquad or crew, etc).

JR

 

[Mr Incredible]

Also, at the same level, if OT and BU, can still be attacked by small arms with a +2 modifier, but is treated as armoured.

Moral of the story, don't use OT vehicles to try the sleaze freeze unless you are willing to lose it.