BtB Steel Inferno

Scott_Blanton

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Hello All,

Posted this to the ASL List, but wanted to try out the Forums. Getting ready to setup this as the Germans.

1. I assume since there is no SSR, the 8-3-8 squads are not AE. Correct?

2. VC is British controlling >=8 stone buildings. As the Germans I can place 3 stone rubble counters. If I place a rubble counter on a building, does it still count as a building for VC purposes?

Thanks!
Scott Blanton
 

Gunner Scott

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I checked A26 and it really is vague on rubble affecting the VC's. I played this scenario and we just played it where the rubbled building did not affect the VC's.
As for Assault Engineers, it has to be by SSR.

hope that helps

Scott


Scott_Blanton said:
Hello All,

Posted this to the ASL List, but wanted to try out the Forums. Getting ready to setup this as the Germans.

1. I assume since there is no SSR, the 8-3-8 squads are not AE. Correct?

2. VC is British controlling >=8 stone buildings. As the Germans I can place 3 stone rubble counters. If I place a rubble counter on a building, does it still count as a building for VC purposes?

Thanks!
Scott Blanton
 

Swiftandsure

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Scott_Blanton said:
1. I assume since there is no SSR, the 8-3-8 squads are not AE. Correct?
Correct
Scott_Blanton said:
2. VC is British controlling >=8 stone buildings. As the Germans I can place 3 stone rubble counters. If I place a rubble counter on a building, does it still count as a building for VC purposes?
Correct. I hesitated with that SSR, and decided one could put the rubble anywhere (and not only in a building hex) - though it could be a problem putting one in the gully in a woods hex...:nuts:
 

Ole Boe

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Scott_Blanton said:
2. VC is British controlling >=8 stone buildings. As the Germans I can place 3 stone rubble counters. If I place a rubble counter on a building, does it still count as a building for VC purposes?
Well, B24.1 says:
"A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building [EXC: for Rubble Clearance purposes; 24.71]"

So, since its not considered a building, and there are no exception in the A26, I guess the answer is "No", the rubbled buildings are no longer buildings for VC purposes.

Seems like the scenario designer may have created a dog by forgetting this...
 

Swiftandsure

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Dear Ole Bole, you are perfectly right!
My answer to the question wanted to say that rubble is no building and does not count towards building control VCs... and I managed to say the exact contrary. :nuts:
The designer may have voluntarily given the possibility to "negate" some buildings for VC control, so the Brits must push further in the village to reach victory (or just to prevent them from controling very marginally placed buildings)...
 

Chas

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Scott,

How the rubble placement/VC is IS intentional. In this scenario rubble hexes do not count towards victory.
The German player has some options on how to place this, and varies the scenario possibilities. The bombardment can also create rubble.

The 838s are NOT AE as there is no HSR stating that.

Chas
 

Ole Boe

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chas said:
How the rubble placement/VC is IS intentional. In this scenario rubble hexes do not count towards victory.
The German player has some options on how to place this, and varies the scenario possibilities. The bombardment can also create rubble.
Ok, then I retract my stament about having created a dog...

It reminds me of some scenario designer article I saw 10 or so years ago, where it was suggested that adding reminders in the SSR was a good thing, even if it wasn't really necessary, if those reminders were key to playing the scenario correctly.

In this specific case, adding something like (note that rubbled buildings do no longer count for VC purposes) to the rubble SSR could've been useful.
 

Chas

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Unfortunately this creates, or possibly has created another problem?

If someone has an SSR that says.....838s are not AE, then people start to assume that if nothing is said, they are. If you state that rubble does not count toward VC, then you are leading people to think it normally does.

I understand your point and it is well taken, but I learned some rules wrong when starting out because of SSRs that made something that was a standard rule sound like an exception, and the exception sound like the rule. Interesting debate topic though:)

Chas
 

sgtono

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chas said:
Unfortunately this creates, or possibly has created another problem?

If someone has an SSR that says.....838s are not AE, then people start to assume that if nothing is said, they are. If you state that rubble does not count toward VC, then you are leading people to think it normally does.

I understand your point and it is well taken, but I learned some rules wrong when starting out because of SSRs that made something that was a standard rule sound like an exception, and the exception sound like the rule. Interesting debate topic though:)

Chas
Exactly why I prefer the rules number be written in the SSR that it is an exception to.

Keith
 

Ole Boe

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chas said:
Unfortunately this creates, or possibly has created another problem?

If someone has an SSR that says.....838s are not AE, then people start to assume that if nothing is said, they are. If you state that rubble does not count toward VC, then you are leading people to think it normally does.
In this case I wouldn't want an SSR. Without an SSR, the worst thing that will probably happen is that a player would have to look up the AE rules to fmake sure that the units are not AEs.

With the rubble, its different though. If the player misses tha fact that the rubbled buildings are no longer VC buildings, the scenario balance may be totally skewed.

I understand your point and it is well taken, but I learned some rules wrong when starting out because of SSRs that made something that was a standard rule sound like an exception, and the exception sound like the rule. Interesting debate topic though:)
And that's a good objection. The SSR would need to be stated such that its clear that its only a reminder (with rule reference as well), and not a real SSR.

I don't mean this should be done very often, but in scenarios where the application of relatively obscure rules are important for the scenario, adding such a reminder SSR could make sure that also those with less-than-optimal knowledge of the rules get to enjoy the scenario.
 

Scott_Blanton

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Guys,

Thanks for the info. Me and my opponent would have played this wrong on the rubble. I may and try to post an AAR after this weekend. The forums are great. If we are not careful, this could seem like the ASL list of old. Answers to questions and rules discussions (Manling vs Tate on RB). :D Who could ask for more. BTW, is there a flamewar forum. :laugh:

Thanks again!
Scott
 

Klaus Fischer

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Scott,


the flamewar forum is usually where Scott (the other; Holst) hangs out :D
Otherwise just follow the threads in the general ASL section and you'll find plenty of fuel and sparks :devious:

Klaus
 
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