BRT Guide, how about RB guide ?

Discussion in 'Advanced Squad Leader' started by JG53_Jaguar, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. JG53_Jaguar

    JG53_Jaguar New Member

    Oct 6, 2005
    I'm doing some proof reading for the BRT Guide, I have to say I like it; even though I'm don't care much for PTO. I think it will be cool though if we could have something like BRT Guide for Red Barricades HASL ? Any chance MMP is thinking about RB guide ?

    PS: I'm thinking about pre-ordering BRT guide cause it is an interesting read...
  2. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    We brought it up before..I volunteered to head up the project, but the consensus at the time was to wait until all three Stalingrad HASLs were out and then do a guide...
  3. JG53_Jaguar

    JG53_Jaguar New Member

    Oct 6, 2005
    Oh man how long is Red October going to take done ? I don't want to rush it of course but if it's going to be a while then why not just take Red Barricades and VotG into focus only ? I mean Red October should be for the most part pretty similar to fighting in RB or VotG (RB being the bloodiest already). I wouldn't really want to wait for Stalingrad guide for 5 years (or however long Red October is going to take)...
  4. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    I'm cool with doing it now. I'm accepting submissions...Send them on...
  5. JG53_Jaguar

    JG53_Jaguar New Member

    Oct 6, 2005
    COOOOOOL STUFF :yummy:
  6. Tork

    Tork New Member

    May 1, 2004
    Foxboro, MA
    You are proofing the BRTGG? How does it look? I was wondering how progress on that was going...

    For a Stalingrad CG guide, there are a couple of points. I'd recommend looking at one of the Red Barricades CGs and use some of the innovations from VotG (night counterattacks, support CPP) and see how that affects balance and game play. We got hassled with the BRTGG over not including new material, so that would help prevent the chatter. Also, if somebody with access to the old ASLML archives could try to dig up exactly who came up with the early tactics (4 Trench, kindling tall buildings, etc) then the proper characters can get credit for their ideas.

    So start writing, and then submit a complete product to MMP! It worked for us!
  7. rdw5150

    rdw5150 it's just a game Silver Supporting Member

    Feb 13, 2003
    Erie, PA
    in 2050:smoke::clown::p

    Just kidding, I am knee deep in VotG lust right now:crosseye:


  8. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    That's the plan Tork...Just need the contributors to step up and provide the materials...I think we will have an awesome product when it is done..*IF* we get enough support...
  9. Danish

    Danish CyberASL Open Tournament Director

    Oct 1, 2003
    What is 4 trench?:crosseye:
  10. hershmeister

    hershmeister Member

    Jun 16, 2007
    nashville TN
    I strongly suggest any RB guide includes suggested house rules since the currrent "tactics" (setting fires to rubble buildings and channel german movement) are gamey and tilt the balance WAY in the Russian favor.

    Also many VOTG rules seem to have been develoepd to manage some of these issues - ican easily see porting some of them over to RB. It would be great to get the VOTG designers input as to what made them develop some of these nuances and rules twists.
  11. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005

    Defense against the Armored Blitz..I have the article somewhere..will post it here when I find it...
  12. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    Tate Rogers penned this article...

    The Four Trench Defense
    (A Suggested Defense for the Russian in Red Barricades)


    Much has been made of the so-called ?Armored Blitz? in Red Barricades (RB) as an initial German tactic. Many claims (mostly unsupported) have been made as to the unbeatable nature of the ?Blitz?. However, from my experience, the ?Blitz? will only be successful Vs an inexperienced Russian. The following is a general outline for a Russian defense that minimizes the potentials of the ?Blitz? while giving the Russian flexibility in meeting any other contingencies. It is not a unit by unit set-up but rather concentrates on the initial purchases and general principles of set-up.


    The Russian can really afford to buy only 1 Inf. Coy. on the first day and it needs to be in reserve. The most ?bang for the buck? would be the Rifle Coy.? As well, the Russian does not usually have enough leadership for more than 1 should be an 80mm. This leaves 3CPP with which to purchase anything else. Now, the Ruski needs to buy at least 2CPP of fortifications which leaves only 1CPP to use or save. I don?t believe that the Russian is in a position to save CPP early (maybe never!). So, there are only 4 items that cost 1CPP...70mm OBA, 80mm OBA, Sniper, or Forts. As mentioned already, 2 OBA is just too much for the normal Russian leader allotment. Sniper??? I don?t just doesn?t seem enough for the first day?s festivities. That leaves Forts.!

    So here is my day one buy:

    Rifle Coy x 1 = 4CPP (Reserve)

    80mm OBA x 1? = 1CPP

    Forts. x 3??? = 3CPP (120 FPP)

    General Set-Up:

    First, I would place A-T Ditches in the following hexes: V5, X5, Y3, and AA1

    Second, I would then place concealed units (could be dummies...maybe not) in the following locations: R5, S6, and S4

    This alone eliminates any fear of the ?River Side Armor Blitz? (RSAB). The German will only be able to move his armor (sans halftracks) through buildings/rubble or the debris fields in the vicinity of R6. With potential enemy units in R5, S6, and S4 the German will not attempt the debris hexes until his infantry is able to clear out these enemy forces. Even then the German will have to traverse at least two debris locations plus his armor will be bunched up while awaiting their turn to run the debris hexes (excellent targets for an 80mm FFE). Combine this with the fact that the majority of the German armor can not even enter the board until turn two and you got a ?Blitz? moving like molasses! Add in the possibility of a Russian AT Gun (perhaps in S11) on the ?River Flank? and I just don?t see the German trying the RSAB. Lastly the OBA observer will be positioned so that an APh will put him in LOS of the ?River Flank?.

    Since the German is not likely to try the RSAB in the face of the ?Trench Defense? the Russian set-up becomes more flexible. The Russian could put mostly dummy cloaking counters behind the trenches and put the bulk of the reserves on the ?RR Flank?. By buying a few more dummy cloaking/concealment counters the Russian can easily disguise his set-up so that the German would feel it to be too much of a gamble to try the RSAB.

    So the RSAB is rendered useless for the cost of 84 FPP (out of 170...2&1/10 CPP equivalent)and a reserve Coy (which the Russian would likely buy and set-up as indicated anyway). This leaves 3 companies, 86 FPP, 1-2 ATG, and an 80mm OBA to defend the rest of the board. I think that ought to be sufficient to handle the other 2/3?s of the front (say from S6 west). Simply incorporate some of the other known good set-up practices for the Russian (firelanes, HIP, etc...) and you got a good solid defense for the Reds on day one.
  13. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    Here is another one..all about use of sewers...

    Rat Catchers in Red Barricades

    By Various Listerines

    So I've been doing some thinking about the Sewer Rat tactic in Red

    Barricades. Now that my poor overworked brain has stopped smoking, I

    thought I'd post my thoughts and solicit some comments.

    The sewer system on the RB map is kinda weird -- some areas have thick,

    redundant sewer systems which are nearly impossible for the German to

    effectively block -- the southwest sector, for instance, and the central

    factory district. Other areas of sewer coverage are fairly thin, such as

    the gully line in the east, and the eastern roads.

    It's hard to make any broad generalizations in RB, since each campaign

    will run differently, but in general if the Russian player is making heavy

    use of sewer movement, or the German thinks his lines might be at serious

    risk to a sudden sewer assault, then the German should consider cutting

    some sewer lines using DCs. Set DCs are expensive in terms of FPP, but

    depending on the situation the German might be able to spare a squad or

    two to Set DCs in his rear. In the front lines, Placed DCs might do the

    trick, though it's less likely (10/36 chance).

    I've made up a sewer-grid map of RB, and having looked at it, here are

    some important sewer locations to blow, for varying reasons. See if you

    agree with me:

    D10, O5

    V9, W15, Y15






    D20, H21, K21, I18

    Barring a wholesale Set DC frenzy over a number of CG Days, the German can

    never make the sewers useless -- a canny Russian can probably always use

    them to make some local gains. But a well-placed Sewer Rubble location can

    prevent the kind of deep breakthroughs that the Russian hopes for when

    using sewer movement.

    I'm not going to comment on the selection of choke points mainly because my

    map is not close at hand. The idea seems sound and I've also kept a sewer

    location map handy when playing RB. Many moons ago I made a photocopy of the

    reduced map and used a highlighter to mark the sewer locations. If you do

    this, go over the main map in strenuous detail, hex by hex, as some of the

    circles can be hard to see (if they're in a building, for instance). Also

    don't forget that a hex with > 2 road hexsides counts as a manhole location.

    I've found two main benefits for this map: (i) you can tell if a unit is on

    a manhole without moving it out of the way and (ii) it let's you plan a

    sewer pathway. One thing I've not done but thought of is highlighting the

    connections between manhole locations.

    An alternative to setting DCs is to HIP a bunch of HSs (use HS instead of

    full squads as the Sewer Emergence drm is per UNIT, not squad equivalent) on

    manholes you think the ratcatchers will use, that PBF (TPBF?) and Haz Mov

    modifier will turn them into ratchow pronto.

    As the Russian I am not really trying for any significant sewer

    breakthroughs simply because the German can usually contain them _AND_

    it requires to much Russian resource to make a truly significant

    breakthrough. However, I do use sewers every scenario to make the

    German think just like you are here. As the Russian I want the German

    spinning his wheels on plans to counter sewer activity...I would

    dearly _LOVE_ to see the German wasting DC vs sewer locations as

    opposed to using those DC to breach factory walls behind which my poor

    Ruskies are cowering...or breaching fortified locations...etc.

    Personally I think the threat of sewer movement is overrated...unless,

    of course, I am playing the Russian which case it is the

    greatest threat the Germans face! ;-)

    If the Russian can manuver the German into a night CG scenario the Russian

    can make some very significant gains using Sewer Movement.

    Try this plan for the Russian who has 80+ squads and a night Scenario coming


    1.)? Put at least 1+ company of 527's into the sewers on Turn 1.? Start

    moving them under the front lines.

    2.)? Have the remainder of theRussinas set up ready to launch numerous Human

    Waves or one Huge HW.? These units do NOT move for 3 turns.

    3.)? Pre-Register 2 Rocket OBA's in spots that you feel a large

    concentration of Germans will be set up.

    4.)? Drop the OBA on his troops and once you see where it hit launch the HW.

    5.)? Pop up out of the sewers in the German rear to cut routs and cause


    Remember he won't hav aa lot of freedom of movement as long as he's under NO

    MOVE counters.

    If you can get a night scenario early in the CG do it.

    The problem with this is that if you set a DC in a sewer

    location there is no way you can be the required 3 hexes away

    and have the required LOS to it in order to set it of, so

    set DC's in sewers wont work.

    You would also have to explain how you can spend your entire

    movement phase in just one location placing a DC, when the sewer

    movement rules require you to move to a new location.

    AFAIK the only way to get a DC to explode in a sewer location is

    by throwing it at a discovered enemy unit there (except japanese

    suicide units - they can set of a DC in their own location).

    The best you can usually do is rubble a building on top of

    a manhole, so that nobody can exit the sewer system there.

    I think this question was asked on the ASLML previously. If I recall

    correctly Perry chimed in and said yes it could be done and that the sewer

    location was treated as a stone location (+3 DRM; +1 for rubbling).

    Even if allowed the possibility of rubbling is greatly reduced. It seems to

    me that if all you can do is place DC in sewer locations then your tactic

    really becomes an excessive waste of men and materials. Mapping the sewers

    is a great idea...the use of the DC's is not!
  14. bos

    bos New Member

    Apr 3, 2007
    Will there be some grand campaign which ties all these together in some way? Such a thing is needed!
  15. JG53_Jaguar

    JG53_Jaguar New Member

    Oct 6, 2005
  16. hershmeister

    hershmeister Member

    Jun 16, 2007
    nashville TN
    Sewer Squatters = 2 squads plus 2 HS = no way for the russian to emerge and good chance of being discovered.

    Sewer is a MAJOR problem because it can create FTR problems - and even if the russian unit dies - its a good trade if he kills 1:1 or greater german units.
  17. Bryan Holtby

    Bryan Holtby Active Member

    Apr 22, 2003
    Ontario, Canada
    Perhaps permission can be obtained to reprint the RB CGIV and any RB map scenarios not included in RB. This would bring added value to a product that would already be in high demand.

    Another article suggestion would be "Bring on the Night"

    An article on the "no pass" German tactic

    Red Carpet defence, where the Russian max's out spending CPP on Inf first.

    Balance options, since CG III actually favours the Russians for the most part.
  18. Hexagoner

    Hexagoner Member

    Aug 31, 2004
    Colorado, USA
    When I submitted the BRT guide final draft to Perry, I asked him if there was interest in a VotG guide, and he said yes. So I would encourage Brian and others to start putting together an outline and decide what the thrust of the guide would be.

    To be honest, BRT was sorely needing somehting like this from the very beginning. It really needed some good players aids and a way to streamline the rules education. RB and (I think) VotG are much more complete products from that POV, and more of a tactics/strategy bent is probably the way to go. If thats the case, you may want to get ahold of some VotG playtesters who might know the ins and outs of some of the strategy options already.

  19. 'Ol Fezziwig

    'Ol Fezziwig Repressed Dissident

    I think just moving on this and presenting to MMP a la the BRTGG the best route. Keep it focused on RB, and if successful (I couldn't imagine it not) then as time and digestion allows, tack on the VotG GG. If BRT, even OOP, can garner 1000 preorders, what could be expected of RB?
  20. Whizbang1963

    Whizbang1963 Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    No..Unfortunately..Two of the Three HASLs will join up, but VOTG is too far South..there would need to be a fourth HASL done to try to close the gap between Red October and VOTG and I'm not sure that any of us would live long enough to see it created and published.

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