Broken Units and SW Posession

acolic

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#1
Hi,

I am in the middle of a game and I have a broken squad with a MMG that refuses to rally. I have moved another squad into their location. I can't find any rules that tell me how I can move the MMG from the broken squad to the ok squad.

Thanks for the info.

Alex
 
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#2
acolic said:
Hi,

I am in the middle of a game and I have a broken squad with a MMG that refuses to rally. I have moved another squad into their location. I can't find any rules that tell me how I can move the MMG from the broken squad to the ok squad.

Thanks for the info.

Alex

Alex,

I justed moved from ASLSK to Full ASL so you may want a vet to give you a more concrete answer. From what I understand, you can not transfer the MMG from the Broken unit to the Good Order Unit. Broken units must route with any SW that has PP equal to or less than their PP allotment. If they route with a SW, only a Leader can then take possession of the weapon from them. So, in your case, you would need to move a Leader into the hex, successfully transfer the SW to the Leader and then trasfer the SW from the Leader to the Unbroken Unit.

Can someome with a little more experience please confirm this.

Thanks
Jesse
 

alanp

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#3
You're reading it correctly; short of rallying the broken one or getting it eliminated and then the good one recovering the sw, there's not much to do except learn from the experience.

The system takes away a lot of your control of units that break and sometimes they just don't want to give up their sw. broken units drop sw that cost more PP than they(the possessor) can carry when routing; they also drop sw when surrendering but these don't sound like options in your situation. TRANSFER is only allowed with Good Order infantry, RECOVERY is an option for infantry w/ un-possessed sw.

The saying goes "Concentrate on What the Rules Allow" Hope this helps.

Alan
 

AdrianE

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#4
Re -read the section on leaders and SW possession and recovery.

You will find that a good order leader may recover a SW from a broken unit. That is the ONLY way to change possesion

NRBH, otherwise I'd give you the exact rules section.

Jesse is correct

Adrian
 

purdyrc

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#5
A Question

Could the broken unit voluntarily go DM and route away, thus leaving the MMG if it is more than 3pp?
 
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#7
The only way for a unit to 'go DM' is if it is fired on with the potential for a NMC (usually 2FP, factoring in cowering, if possible). Normally, once the DM marker is removed, because the brokie is in cover, only an attack (or enemy moving adjacent) will allow it to route further (dropping the 4pp or greater weapon as it does so).
 
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#8
jshultis said:
If they route with a SW, only a Leader can then take possession of the weapon from them. So, in your case, you would need to move a Leader into the hex, successfully transfer the SW to the Leader and then trasfer the SW from the Leader to the Unbroken Unit.

Can someome with a little more experience please confirm this.

Thanks
Jesse
The leader would actually have to RECOVER the SW from the brokie
(would involve a dr), and then could transfer it to another unit. Note that Recovery can occur during Rally Phase or Movement Phase. Of course if a leader is present in Rally, I would think you'd by trying to rally the unit instead
(and then the leader couldn't try for Recovery in the same RPh).
To answer the question about voluntary DM--no, that cannot be done.
You can voluntarily break a Good Order unit, but once DM is lost the unit would either have to be attacked by an enemy unit, be ADJACENT to an enemy unit, or be in Open Ground within normal range of an enemy unit.

Phil "becoming a pro with brokies" Palmer
 

alanp

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#9
no. there are instances in which you may choose to keep dm status (see A10.62) but if you're in that situation, you've already either routed with the sw or dropped it. You may not choose 'to go dm' if already broken.

In my post above, I was referring to a MMC tranferring the sw; you're correct, of course, about the SMC being able to recover the sw.

Alan
 

Jazz

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#10
purdyrc said:
Could the broken unit voluntarily go DM and route away, thus leaving the MMG if it is more than 3pp?
Nope, only enemy action can make him go DM. Of course, if he routed there once with the SW,he can rout with it again. The only way his PP capacity goes down in the die.... If he didn't rout there, than thas where he broke, and you shoulda' routed him when you had the chance. :D

Note that keeping/losing DM is not entirely in your control either. If he's in Rally terrain (woods, Bldg, maybe trench also?) he MUST lose DM in the next Rally Phase. If he's in open ground in normal range of an enemy unit. he MUST keep DM. Other than that, it's your call as to if DM is kept/lost.

Note also, any SMC (not just leaders) can try to recover a SW from a brokie. In other words, a hero (the only other SMC I'm aware of) can try to recover the SW from the brokie.

Jazz
 

alanp

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#11
Priest said:
Yes Alan, can't the broken squad drop the MMG and the good squad recover it?

see A4.43(1st ed.)"An UNBROKEN unit may drop possession of a SW/Gun. . .during its APh, MPh or at the start of CCPh."

PLEASE tell me the 2nd Ed. has kept similiar wording!

Alan
 

Ole Boe

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#12
alanp said:
PLEASE tell me the 2nd Ed. has kept similiar wording!
It has. From my eASLRBv2:

"An unbroken unit may drop possession of a SW/Gun at no MF cost during its MPh (and thus need not actually move), APh, or at the start of a CCPh (11.21) in order to Withdraw from Melee"
 

CPRad

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#13
Ldr with several SW

Hey

I've read all the posts in this tread thinking I may have the answers here to my question but this is a very touchy situation.

After a very effective firefight (for the other guy) I'm left with 2 x LMG and a MMG with an unbroken ldr in the hex. As I read and understand it this ldr can recover one of the SW (this is the other guys defensive phase)and move in the APh with it. My question is can he pick up the MMG? I see it is 3pp. So if he can't, can he instead pick up the 2 LMG or is he limited to only one SW?

Also if one squad were in a hex with say 3 enemy SW can he roll three times for recovery of all three SW?

Thanks
 
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#14
A leader may carry a maximum of 2 PP, so while he could Recover the MMG, he could not move it. To pick up both LMGs would require the expenditure of 2 MF plus 2 Recovery rolls.
 
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CPRad

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#15
WaterRabbit said:
A leader only has 2 PP, so while he could Recover the MMG, he could not move it. To pick up both LMGs would require the expenditure of 2 MF plus 2 Recovery rolls.

OK thanks .. but in 4.44 it says half way down ... if a unit surrenders, is eliminated, or routs away and cannot carry its SW, an infantry SMC can immediately Recover one of that infantry units SW/Guns in this same manner but regardless of phase.

So do I still expend MF's... could I pick it up and fire in the AFPh? I appreciate this help since I've made a mess of the rules in this game so far and would rather do something right for a change.
 

alanp

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#16
Are there just a SMC and 3 unpossessed sw in the location now?

Sounds like the SMC could attempt to recover the sw when the MMC is eliminated - even in the enemy's PFPh. This costs no MF. If he's recovering from broken MMC, it's only during your MPh/RPh and costs no MF. The recovery dr is still necessary in either case.

Yeah, if MMC is eliminated in, say, DFPh, the SMC may attempt recovery and if successful may use the sw (IF usable in AFPh - remember mmgs may not) if the SMC is able to fire.

Alan
 
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#17
CPRad said:
OK thanks .. but in 4.44 it says half way down ... if a unit surrenders, is eliminated, or routs away and cannot carry its SW, an infantry SMC can immediately Recover one of that infantry units SW/Guns in this same manner but regardless of phase.

So do I still expend MF's... could I pick it up and fire in the AFPh? I appreciate this help since I've made a mess of the rules in this game so far and would rather do something right for a change.
If the unit was eliminated by Defensive Fire the leader may attempt to Recover the MMG without MF expenditure. But the leader must have been stacked with the unit. For example, if the leader was in the hex and the MMC carrying the MG entered the hex and was eliminated by DFF, then the leader may not attempt Recovery until his MPh and only with a 1 MF expenditure plus dr (assuming he hasn’t already moved). If they were moving together or they were in the same Location during DFPh when the MMC was eliminated he could attempt Recover without MF expenditure.

Additionally, if the MMG changed Location during the MPh, the leader would not be able to fire it during AFPh even if he successfully Recovered it from an eliminated MMC he was stacked with. He could not move it in the APh, since it exceeds his inherent 2 PP. Finally, he fires the MMG at 1/2 FP. So assuming it is a 4 FP MMG that did not change location during the MPh, he would have 1 FP in the AFPh.
 

CPRad

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#18
WaterRabbit said:
If the unit was eliminated by Defensive Fire the leader may attempt to Recover the MMG without MF expenditure. But the leader must have been stacked with the unit. For example, if the leader was in the hex and the MMC carrying the MG entered the hex and was eliminated by DFF, then the leader may not attempt Recovery until his MPh and only with a 1 MF expenditure plus dr (assuming he hasn’t already moved). If they were moving together or they were in the same Location during DFPh when the MMC was eliminated he could attempt Recover without MF expenditure.

Additionally, if the MMG changed Location during the MPh, the leader would not be able to fire it during AFPh even if he successfully Recovered it from an eliminated MMC he was stacked with. He could not move it in the APh, since it exceeds his inherent 2 PP. Finally, he fires the MMG at 1/2 FP. So assuming it is a 4 FP MMG that did not change location during the MPh, he would have 1 FP in the AFPh.
Thank you very much WaterRabbit, thats exactly what the situation is. Your explanation makes everything very clear. Your help should have been employed when these rules were written.
: -)

Thanks Again
 

Ole Boe

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#19
WaterRabbit said:
For example, if the leader was in the hex and the MMC carrying the MG entered the hex and was eliminated by DFF, then the leader may not attempt Recovery until his MPh and only with a 1 MF expenditure plus dr (assuming he hasn’t already moved). If they were moving together or they were in the same Location during DFPh when the MMC was eliminated he could attempt Recover without MF expenditure.
I agree with the rest, but cannot see this restriction in the rules. A4.44 only says "if a unit surrenders, is eliminated, or routs away and cannot carry its SW, an Infantry SMC can immediately Recover one of that Infantry unit's SW/Guns in this same manner but regardless of phase."
 
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#20
Primarily because of A4.4:

No item can be portaged more than once per phase except as allowed by combined Infantry and vehicle portage within a single phase.
It is the same rule that prevents a unit from moving for 2 MF, dropping a SW and then having another unit pick it up and continue to move it.

Your interpretation opens up the possibility for moving a SW a number of MF equal to 6x(# of ldrs) for a 2 pp SW; or 7x(# of ldrs) for a 1 pp SW (not including MF gained from road bonus).

However, the leader during his MPh could recover said weapon, even if that weapon had moved and regardless of its PP, but he would have to end his MPh upon Recovery.

[QUOTE='96 Annual]A4.4 & A4.44 If a unit Recovers the SW at the end of its MPh (i.e., it expends no MF after gaining possession of the SW), is the portage cost assessed?

A. No. {96}[/QUOTE]

It is this that forms the basis of my previous reply. There is nothing in A4.44 that frees a leader from the constraints imposed by the A4.4 restriction on allowing a SW to be portaged more than once per phase.
 
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