British Carrriers and capabilities

[Simon62]

Hi all,

Never used carriers before but they are in the scenario we are playing and I have a number of questions that I can't seem to find a clear rule for and a number of items that I would appreciate some clarification of my understanding.

The situation is : there is a Carrier 'C' in a June 1944 scenario, it has 4PP, a MMG as main armament and a PIAT stowed. It has a 9-1 leader as a passenger, it has no riders and cannot transport any other passengers as it only has 4PP.

My questions/queries are:

1. Can the crew whilst in the carrier fire the PIAT? would it need recovering first? - I think not as they are counted, as my understanding, as an inherent crew and can only fire the MMG of the carrier.
2. The passenger leader can pick up the stowed PIAT without dismounting- does he need a recovery die roll?
3. The leader can fire the PIAT from the carrier without dismounting?
4. Can the 9-1 infantry leader passenger direct the fire of the carrier MMG being fired by the inherent crew? I think not as from what I can see in the rules the carrier MMG can form a fire group with other passengers/riders/other infantry in hex, but there are no passengers/riders or other infantry in hex only the passenger leader. The leader on it's own in a location cannot form or be part of a fire group according to A7.5 as it is not adding any fire power to the attack, thus, the only way that an infantry leader could add its modifier to the carrier MMG fire is if there were infantry riders/passengers/other in hex infantry that formed a fire group with the carrier MMG. If the carrier had an armour leader then this could modify the fire of the carrier MMG regardless. - must admit totally confused on this one.

Thanks in advance for any help/clarification/insights etc any comments would be greatly appreciated

Simon

 

[EagleIV]

1. The crew (actually a HS) can fire the PIAT instead of firing the MG. Recovery is free and automatic.
2. There is no recovery dr as long as the PIAT is still stowed. If it has been removed and dropped in the Carrier it must be recovered.
3. Yes.
4. A passenger leader can (usually) direct the Carrier MG. See D6.65 and D6.8.

 

[Simon62]

Thanks for the quick response - I have re-read the sections you mention D6.65 & D6.8 as you mention

1. Thankyou for clearing this up
2. Thankyou for clearing this up
3. Thankyou for confirming
4. Still unsure on this:

D6.65 says "the leader passenger may be used to direct fire of other passengers in the halftrack/carrier" bit does not mention inherent crew, later it says "similarly, a passenger leader may direct an OVR or CC attack in which other passengers take part but may not be used to direct the halftrack alone" - it also then indicates that an armour leader can only direct passengers if they form a fire group with the carrier MG and states the armour leader "cannot direct them separately", thus if the passengers fire separately from the carrier MMG the armour leader cannot direct the passengers but can direct the MMG.

Is the crew counted as a passenger?

I have also found and downloaded crib/cheat sheet from the internet again indicating that the infantry leader passenger can only affect the passengers/riders for morale or fire. If the Carrier MMG forms a fire group with these passengers/riders then by default the leadership will apply as it effectively is the direction of the passengers/riders and not the carrier MG. the converse seems to be applied to armour leaders.

It also says that infantry passenger leaders can only modify rally/TC/MC of passengers and not crew and conversely with armour leaders - again indicating that leaders only effect some units unless they are grouped together as a firegroup.

 

[Binchois]

Thanks for the quick response - I have re-read the sections you mention D6.65 & D6.8 as you mention

1. Thankyou for clearing this up
2. Thankyou for clearing this up
3. Thankyou for confirming
4. Still unsure on this:

D6.65 says "the leader passenger may be used to direct fire of other passengers in the halftrack/carrier" bit does not mention inherent crew, later it says "similarly, a passenger leader may direct an OVR or CC attack in which other passengers take part but may not be used to direct the halftrack alone" - it also then indicates that an armour leader can only direct passengers if they form a fire group with the carrier MG and states the armour leader "cannot direct them separately", thus if the passengers fire separately from the carrier MMG the armour leader cannot direct the passengers but can direct the MMG.

Is the crew counted as a passenger?

I have also found and downloaded crib/cheat sheet from the internet again indicating that the infantry leader passenger can only affect the passengers/riders for morale or fire. If the Carrier MMG forms a fire group with these passengers/riders then by default the leadership will apply as it effectively is the direction of the passengers/riders and not the carrier MG. the converse seems to be applied to armour leaders.

It also says that infantry passenger leaders can only modify rally/TC/MC of passengers and not crew and conversely with armour leaders - again indicating that leaders only effect some units unless they are grouped together as a firegroup.

I think EagleIV had your first three questions mostly correct (though see below), but point #4 goes to you, Simon. The RB says what it says, so no: a passenger leader cannot direct the fire of the Carrier crew or its MGs without being part of a FG with passengers. The nature of a carrier team (really a HS, trained for dismounted action as Infantry) might suggest that it should be otherwise - so a Q&A might be warranted - but the rules as-they-are keep any random hitchhiker-leader from attempting to take charge.

As for your stowed PIAT, remember that once it takes counter form, it becomes a 1PP draw against the Carrier's PP capacity (which could keep you from using it if the Carrier was already full). Vehicle Note 64 for the Carrier C says that only the inherent crew may unstow it to use onboard. Presumably, they could later transfer the weapon to any passengers. The same note says that a passenger may only unload it. Once claimed by an unloading Passenger, I assume that passenger could maintain the weapon should the unit remount the Carrier.

 

[bendizoid]

The piat will allow the carrier to enter a tank’s hex, say a MKIV, or even better a MKV, that could lead to a juicy bounding fire shot. JR Tracy learned me that one.

 

[von Marwitz]

What is noteworthy about Carriers is their capability to carry Passengers AND Riders:

D6.81 PP: A Carrier is a fully-tracked OT AFV. A Carrier without a mortar, FT, or 6 FP AAMG listed as MA on its counter has a Passenger capacity of four PP (as per 6.1) for SMC/SW/ammo (C10.13). Any Carrier can also carry ≤ eight Rider PP (as per 6.2).

In sum, they have 12PP capacity. It might be somewhat awkward to distribute these optimally between Passenger, Riders (not to forget the potentially stowed ATR/PIAT). But basically, a Carrier being fully tracked and having 16MP is quick as lightning and can unload a quite substantial firebase:

HS+ dm 51mm MTR + Leader (Riders 8PP)
Carrier HS + ATR (stowed) + MMG (from Carrier)
Hero (Passenger 1PP & 3PP to spare)

Hand the Hero the ATR to get his Heroic range out to 12 hexes range. Stack him with the -1 Leader which directs the Carrier HS + MMG. The Rider HS mans the MTR for SMOKE.

Such a force can be a real PITA if it suddenly pops up where you didn't expect it.

von Marwitz

 

[Yuri0352]

Very interesting... The Carriers are permitted 8PP of Riders, whereas the rules prohibit the T-70 from carrying any riders at all. All this despite copious photographic evidence of T-70's carrying Soviet infantry in to battle.

 

[Gordon]

Very interesting... The Carriers are permitted 8PP of Riders, whereas the rules prohibit the T-70 from carrying any riders at all. All this despite copious photographic evidence of T-70's carrying Soviet infantry in to battle.

But it says it right there on the tin: "Carrier".

 

[jrv]

The Carriers are permitted 8PP of Riders, whereas the rules prohibit the T-70 from carrying any riders at all. All this despite copious photographic evidence of T-70's carrying Soviet infantry in to battle.

Carriers were frequently abused:

(http://www.mapleleafup.net/vehicles/carriers/ucrhpr.html)

If a T-70 took riders it would probably be a halfsquad, and to allow that in ASL you'd have to allow the Soviets to deploy (or give them at-start prisoners).

JR

 

[Yuri0352]

ASL could allow the T-70 to carry riders by reclassifying the vehicle as a light tank rather than a tankette. I do believe that it is safe to assume that any such rule modification is not likely to happen.

 

[bendizoid]

That’s what SSRs are for. Problem solved.

 

[von Marwitz]

That’s what SSRs are for. Problem solved.

That's what an 88 is for. Problem solved. Only flying bits of T-70 and riders left... ?

von Marwitz

 

[Simon62]

Ok thanks for all the great comments and insights some interesting options for using the carrier PIAT's!!

On my original query re the use of leaders directing fire I think given the comments I have come to the following level of understanding:

1. Armour leaders in a halftrack/carrier can direct the carrier crew fired weapons (be that the MG or PIAT in this case). If the carrier also contains riders/passengers/other friendly infantry in the hex then these can form a fire group with the Carrier MG's and the armour leader's modifier would apply as he is effectively directing the MG but as all units are in the same location then the best leadership modifier applies and thus the armour leader modifier is used as he is directing the carrier MG.
2. Conversely, a passenger leader in a carrier where no armour leader is present but passengers/riders/other infantry in hex can direct the passengers/riders/other infantry and if these form a fire group with the carrier MG's then again the leadership modifier is applied as they are in the same location and the best leadership modifier would apply as the infantry are being directed.
3. If the carrier MG fires alone it can only be modified by an armour leader but not a passenger infantry leader
4. If the passengers/riders/other infantry in hex fire independantly from the carrier then an infantry leader passenger can direct but an armour leader cannot.

Have I got this now???

If this is correct then this leads onto a few further clarifications:

My understanding of fire direction (A7.531) for multiple locations is that a leader must be present in each location of the fire group and then only the worst leadership modifier can be applied to the whole group Thus:

1. Are passengers/riders/crew of a carrier/halftrack all considered to be in the same location - I assume yes to allow the above points to hold true. if they are in separate locations then an armour leader and an infantry leader would be required to modify the fire group of infantry and carrier MG's.
2. going on from this are other infantry in the hex with a carrier considered in a different location to the carrier, this could happen if a unit were in a building and the carrier were in bypass. But does this also mean that infantry in an open hex with a carrier are in different locations as well. If so then would the infantry in hex need a leader as well as the carrier leaders to form a fire group with the carrier and apply the leadership modifiers?

Confused

SImon

 

[jrv]

1. Are passengers/riders/crew of a carrier/halftrack all considered to be in the same location - I assume yes to allow the above points to hold true. if they are in separate locations then an armour leader and an infantry leader would be required to modify the fire group of infantry and carrier MG's.
2. going on from this are other infantry in the hex with a carrier considered in a different location to the carrier, this could happen if a unit were in a building and the carrier were in bypass. But does this also mean that infantry in an open hex with a carrier are in different locations as well. If so then would the infantry in hex need a leader as well as the carrier leaders to form a fire group with the carrier and apply the leadership modifiers?

Conveyance does not create separate Locations. The Passengers and crew of a halftrack, the Passengers and Riders and crew of a Carrier, Infantry, Infantry in an entrenchment, Cavalry, Skiers, and Motorcyclists in the same open ground hex (without things that do create separate locations like pillboxes) would all be in the same Location. Whether a leader could direct other units in the location will depend on considerations other than being in the same Location. For example an armor leader can only direct the vehicle—together with its firegrouping passengers if a halftrack or carrier—while a CE mounted infantry leader (i.e. a Passenger, not Infantry) can direct Infantry in the Location.

JR