British "3-in." mortar revisited

[pybarrondo]

Curious what MMP's approach will be to the 3 in mortar in new WWII scenarios. Not interested in outside speculation but if MMP representatives would care to weigh in: Will the Korean War counters at 81mm be used? Or will scenarios continue to depict the 76mm of WoA and FKaC?

 

[pybarrondo]

To be clear, I know the FW Chapter H notes give players the option of using the FW counters for existing WWII scenarios. I'm curious how official MMP scenarios will handle it going forward. Which will be depicted on the scenario cards for new WWII scenarios? Will there be official guidance for designers/playtesters on which to use?

 

[xenovin]

I would take this as a new toy going forward for new designs.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Whenever I have to play a scenario with 3 inch mortars, I will use the 81* counters.
There are few scenarios featuring them - and not a lot with more than one.

Now will there be changes in the British OBA charts to replace 70 M with 80 M?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Now will there be changes in the British OBA charts to replace 70 M with 80 M?

Doubtful I think, since the counter in FW isn't really errata for the older counters, they merely come with a suggestion that one can use them in WWII scenario.

Also, for those people doing DYO, it would be pretty easy to just take the "70+ M" and treat them as 80 with an increase in cost.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Could one see designers of future scenarios SSR a 80+mm Mortar OBA Module?
I would not consider that unreasonable.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Could one see designers of future scenarios SSR a 80+mm Mortar OBA Module?

I don't see why not. The OBA charts are, IMO, only a guidance and for DYO purposes.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Could one see designers of future scenarios SSR a 80+mm Mortar OBA Module?
I would not consider that unreasonable.

70 vs 80 battalion mortar OBA! What is that in terms of "realism"?

It's really some form of OBA that is dedicated to the unit that is just 1 level above what is usually within an ASL player side. Purely off the top of my head, I'd say up to a half of scenarios have only about a (reinforced) company, the common 6 to 12 squads. So that ASL company is much more likely to get assistance from it's parent battalion than its regimental or divisional OBA assets who are likely to have other customers to serve.

It's the priority that your on board ASL unit has with the OBA that really matters, not whether it's battalion or not. Indeed some armies like the Japanese and Romanians (and even the Soviets during scarce times) might have no medium mortars at battalion level. When the Germans reused and eventually made copies of the Soviet 120mm mortars, they issued them at battalion level and the 81mm battalion mortars were split up and passed on to the rifle companies.

A case could be made that if an army had battalion level mortars or infantry guns that you could give an additional -1 DRM per additional company equivalent on board above one company in addition to the effective -1 for maintaining contact (1 comp = -2 total DRM, 2 comp = -3, 3 comp = -4). But that's a rule change and too late for that.

However what's not too late is to think less in terms of battalion MTR and more in terms of dedicated OBA, whether it's true battalion MTR or someone has got the undivided attention and devotion of a 150mm howitzer battery. Klas is right, it's what to interpret the firing unit's intentions and orders that really should matter, IE the OBA mission, not the formal OoB tables.

So if Captain Winters slipped the nearest artillery battery commander a bottle of whiskey during his last meeting, why not have 105mm or 155mm "battalion MTR" OBA.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I was just evoking the idea of an adaptation of the OBA to the corrected calibre of the on board 3-in. mortar and to the fact that a batallion mortar category in ASL makes radio contact maintenance easier.
Out of the game's perspective I know nothing.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I was just evoking the idea of an adaptation of the OBA to the corrected calibre of the on board 3-in. mortar and to the fact that a batallion mortar category in ASL makes radio contact maintenance easier.
Out of the game's perspective I know nothing.

I got that and I would agree that it's a very good idea (at the very least from mid war onwards, early 3" MTR bombs were not quite up to scratch). Your post got me thinking "what does battalion MTR really mean". Between your and Klas's comments and a little thought, a designer could also legitimately SSR other OBA as being treated the same as battalion MTR. How much your suggestion of a 70mm to 80mm shift would affect existing scenarios, I have no idea, only time would tell, but it should be considered.

 

[Vinnie]

When oba is crucial to the bakancebof the scenario, spevifyingnthe battalion mortar modifier applies is a good idea.

 

[GeorgeBates]

I got that and I would agree that it's a very good idea (at the very least from mid war onwards, early 3" MTR bombs were not quite up to scratch). Your post got me thinking "what does battalion MTR really mean". Between your and Klas's comments and a little thought, a designer could also legitimately SSR other OBA as being treated the same as battalion MTR. How much your suggestion of a 70mm to 80mm shift would affect existing scenarios, I have no idea, only time would tell, but it should be considered.

The other problem to be considered is the number of tubes in the battery. A British infantry battalion's mortar platoon possessed only two tubes until the size of its battery was increased to six in the revised War Establishment Tables June 1941. Thus, it may make sense to retain the 12FP for British battalion mortar OBA until the second half of 1941.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

The other problem to be considered is the number of tubes in the battery. A British infantry battalion's mortar platoon possessed only two tubes until the size of its battery was increased to six in the revised War Establishment Tables June 1941. Thus, it may make sense to retain the 12FP for British battalion mortar OBA until the second half of 1941.

An very excellent point. The whole OBA thing is pretty notional anyway. Even for allowing for the number of tubes when decently equipped once war had show that 2 tubes were plainly insufficient, there were great variations in even official allocation. A US mechanised battalion had 3, a fair few armies only 4, though 6 was common and a late war Soviet battalion might have 9. Likewise artillery batteries varied greatly in size. Even ignoring very and super heavy batteries who might have only 2 guns, I've seen anything from 3 to 8 guns for divisional level batteries, with from 9 to 24 per battalion. Even within the German army which seemed to settle on 4 guns, late war VG divisions often had a mix of battalions with 6 gun 75mm batteries and 4 gun 105mm batteries for a total of 18 and 12 per battalion respectively. Indeed a designer might not be too far wrong in treating them all the same as 105mm despite nominally being different, more tubes in the 75mm and likely a higher rate of fire per tube.

 

[Perry]

So if Captain Winters slipped the nearest artillery battery commander a bottle of whiskey during his last meeting, why not have 105mm or 155mm "battalion MTR" OBA.

Never!!

Now, a -1 "coordination" DRM to the Maintenance DR might be in order.

 

[KYCATS7]

So if Captain Winters slipped the nearest artillery battery commander a bottle of whiskey during his last meeting, why not have 105mm or 155mm "battalion MTR" OBA.[/QUOTE]


How about a bar of gold?..

 

[Eagle4ty]

Never!!

Now, a -1 "coordination" DRM to the Maintenance DR might be in order.

Priority of Fire support, who'da ever thunk!

 

[xenovin]

.
How about a bar of gold?..

You might be able to get a Tiger tank for that!

 

[Ric of The LBC]

70 vs 80 battalion mortar OBA! What is that in terms of "realism"?

It's really some form of OBA that is dedicated to the unit that is just 1 level above what is usually within an ASL player side. Purely off the top of my head, I'd say up to a half of scenarios have only about a (reinforced) company, the common 6 to 12 squads. So that ASL company is much more likely to get assistance from it's parent battalion than its regimental or divisional OBA assets who are likely to have other customers to serve.

It's the priority that your on board ASL unit has with the OBA that really matters, not whether it's battalion or not. Indeed some armies like the Japanese and Romanians (and even the Soviets during scarce times) might have no medium mortars at battalion level. When the Germans reused and eventually made copies of the Soviet 120mm mortars, they issued them at battalion level and the 81mm battalion mortars were split up and passed on to the rifle companies.

A case could be made that if an army had battalion level mortars or infantry guns that you could give an additional -1 DRM per additional company equivalent on board above one company in addition to the effective -1 for maintaining contact (1 comp = -2 total DRM, 2 comp = -3, 3 comp = -4). But that's a rule change and too late for that.

However what's not too late is to think less in terms of battalion MTR and more in terms of dedicated OBA, whether it's true battalion MTR or someone has got the undivided attention and devotion of a 150mm howitzer battery. Klas is right, it's what to interpret the firing unit's intentions and orders that really should matter, IE the OBA mission, not the formal OoB tables.

So if Captain Winters slipped the nearest artillery battery commander a bottle of whiskey during his last meeting, why not have 105mm or 155mm "battalion MTR" OBA.

or a gold bar to Mulligan