Brit Module Screenshots Posted by Battlefront

dalem

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So they actually got on-map mortars into the game. Good for them. Will they have ammo guys handing ammo to the gunners, etc.?

-dale
 

thewood

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Not so fast on the "on map mortar" thing. Steve said the 51mm is an exception because its range is short. I also think that not having a crew makes a difference.
 

Geordie

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The 51mm is basically a one man jobber that the UK used before getting grenade launchers. However, it is retained as it is often more handy than the GL, fires a slightly larger round too.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0099.html

I imagine SF treats it like a big GL programme wise. I imagine it will be a handy infantry tool for quickly putting down an effective, but limited, smoke screen right in front of an enemy position.
 

Geordie

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I wonder if they are including the current LASM and the one just being fielded called ASM (Anti Structures Munition)?
 

thewood

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It looks to me that they are putting minimal effort into the 51's implementation. I predict Steve's "we do something for you and all you do is give us grief, you never satisfied bastages" rant is around the corner.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The implementation of mortars is not trivial; we all saw that in game terms, they were highly effective in CMX1 - perfect for taking out MGs in woods, for example. I would expect to see the U.S. 60mm Mortar - both the M2(?) and the airborne M19(?) versions, the latter possibly being modelled like the current 51mm in British service.

While small mortar batteries can be simulated by/as off-map artillery, I don't know how often they were actually employed that way - as Geordie points out, they are used today for smoke screens at the platoon level (Canada still uses the U.S. M19 airborne mortar and some of our EIS is U.S. Army war dated - I've seen it in our stores) as well as HE, illum, etc. In game terms, the use of single weapons would probably be noticably absent, if not in historical terms, then certainly from the legions of CMX1 players who will be returning to CM:N hoping to find the gameplay has not appreciably been altered by the change in scale of the onscreen representation. Not having light or even medium mortars on the map would be a major shift.

It would be more usual to see 3-inch, 81mm and 8.1cm mortars of the British, Americans and Germans employed in platoons, and used as "off map" artillery, and their exclusion from direct representation would be less of a hardship in my opinion. But I think the lights definitely need to be in there. The Germans stopped using the 5cm midway through the way, calling it the "meatball thrower" but it was a real presence in British infantry platoons (the 51mm weapon seems not to have changed much since 1944) and in American infantry companies.
 

Redwolf

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My understanding of the thread is that there's no indirect spotting.
 

Michael Dorosh

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My understanding of the thread is that there's no indirect spotting.
There is probably no call for it at this stage. ISTM the optics on the mortar consist of a white line painted on the barrel. :D

Well...that and some form of gunsight, but I'm not sure if indirect spotting is in their inventory or not? Even if so, I can see that it might be cumbersome to model at this stage. If we do see on-map medium mortars in CM:N, I would expect to have indirect spotting "rules".
 
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thewood

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I think, based on Steve talking on CMSF and ToW, mortars main issue is animations. A large crew-served weapon would require a lot of animations.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I think, based on Steve talking on CMSF and ToW, mortars main issue is animations. A large crew-served weapon would require a lot of animations.
1:1 rep. Can open, worms everywhere.

Figuring out how to handle the ammo loadout must be a pain also. They ran into that with the anti-tank weapons ("Huh? you mean I have to physically tell them to get them out of the Stryker? And when I want them I have to split the squad and jog half the guys back just to grab a couple of missiles?")
 

Redwolf

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My thinking exactly.

I got the hunch that many people who see "mortars included" think of indirect fire and gonna be disappointed.
 

dalem

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If they don't have the U.S. M2 60mm and at least the same level of indirect spotting ability that they have in CMx1 then they are fools. The M2 was incredibly versatile and anyone who's read McDonald's "Company Commander" and the ASL Chapter H notes knows the drill: sometimes you pack a few forward for immediate direct support, sometimes you get a section or the platoon in a good spot for overwatch of the whole platoon or company, and sometimes you left them back at the company CP and have a radio connection or phone line laid.

That's what they were for, and that's how they were used, all the live-long day.

-dale
 

Redwolf

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If they don't have the U.S. M2 60mm and at least the same level of indirect spotting ability that they have in CMx1 then they are fools. The M2 was incredibly versatile and anyone who's read McDonald's "Company Commander" and the ASL Chapter H notes knows the drill: sometimes you pack a few forward for immediate direct support, sometimes you get a section or the platoon in a good spot for overwatch of the whole platoon or company, and sometimes you left them back at the company CP and have a radio connection or phone line laid.
You can definitely forget about that for a couple of major releases.
 

[hirr]Leto

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You can definitely forget about that for a couple of major releases.
That is definately a game breaker for me when it comes to realistic small infantry combat tactics. The only way to deal with some nasty units like airborne engineers, SMG troops or Jager squads is to use 50mm and 60mm short range mortars to counterdict the use of these units.

Wasn't TOW a complete disappointment from the perspective of you didn't have onboard indirect or direct mortars and you couldn't enter buildings???

I fret for the end of Combat Mission as we know it if they continue to cut and streamline some of the most impactful and effective tactics in the game by leaving these units and capabilities out to streamline it for the non-WEGO twitcher crowds. Even the fanbois will need to loosen their pucker and put their shoulder into this one... at least those with any penchant for combat realism, historical accuracy and most important of all: GAMEPLAY!!

ARRRGGHHH!!!

(I may have to buy or create my own company to renew CMx1 FFS!)

Leto
 

Geordie

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But in CM-1 you dont have onboard indirect fire mortars either. You do have mortars tied to HQ units which you can hide behind a hill and let the HQ spot, but again, the HQ doesnt order indirect fire.

Ive never read anything that says CMN wont have HQ spotting, unless I missed something?
 

Michael Dorosh

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The speculation meter is running pretty high right now. Let them F it up before we lambaste them for Fing it up, I say. There's so much else for them to get wrong in the meantime. ;)

Besides, if you honestly modelled German 8cm and 12cm mortars the way they were actually used, I think it would be a pretty good way of unbalancing just about any scenario - basically they zeroed in their own positions, started firing at the first sign of enemy infantry, hammered the approaches while the Allied troops came at them, dropped back from lightly held outposts, and pounded the crap out of their former positions, sometimes for hours or even days with mortar fire, while the tubes were largely untouchable due to being hard to spot and also heavily concentrated up front where they were needed.

I'd be okay with them concentrating their efforts on fixing the infantry game - i.e. give infantry companies more to do, model them more realistically, get those MGs doing things they were really used for, have squads break down into realistic sub-units (and start out at less than full strength which was de rigeur in Normandy), get close-assault of tanks back in, hand-to-hand combat, etc. I'd be very happy if mortars were considered a luxury in the short term if it meant getting the infantry up to par first.
 
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