Bridge LOS and Movement

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
Gentlemen:

Please see illustration:

8176

Does a Unit at DD5 have an LOS to a Unit IN CC5 (i.e. under the bridge)? Why / why not?

Can a Unit in DD5 Move/Advance beneath the Bridge? Why / why not?

Thanks in advance!

Chuck Hammond (aka "Commissar1969")
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,494
Reaction score
555
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
There is LOS between DD5 and CC5. Perhaps surprisingly, there is no hindrance from the bridge:

B6.2 All bridges block LOS between units on the bridge and units beneath the bridge. Otherwise, a bridge does not block LOS. However, a non-pontoon bridge does Hinder any LOS drawn through it between units which are at the same level as the Bridge or units only one of which is below the level of the Bridge (unless that LOS is traced only through the road depiction of the Bridge).​

Movement between the bridge and the gully beneath can only be accomplished by Scaling or Climbing (B11.4). Why? Because B6.4 says so!

B6.4 Entrance of/exit from a bridge Location can occur only by crossing a road hexside on that bridge [EXC: by Scaling (23.424) and using a Climbing counter in the bridge hex].​
 
Last edited:

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
There is LOS between DD5 and CC5. Perhaps surprisingly, there is no hindrance from the bridge:

B6.2 All bridges block LOS between units on the bridge and units beneath the bridge. Otherwise, a bridge does not block LOS. However, a non-pontoon bridge does Hinder any LOS drawn through it between units which are at the same level as the Bridge or units only one of which is below the level of the Bridge (unless that LOS is traced only through the road depiction of the Bridge).​

Movement between the bridge and the gully beneath can only be accomplished by Scaling or Climbing (B11.4). Why? Because B6.4 says so!

B6.4 Entrance of/exit from a bridge Location can occur only by crossing a road hexside on that bridge [EXC: by Scaling (23.424) and using a Climbing counter in the bridge hex].​
Thanks for this, Binchois. However, I don't think you understood my second question. B6.4 is talking about going from to / from the bridge location IN THE BRIDGE HEX. I'm talking about going directly from DD5 (NOT a bridge hex) to UNDER the bridge. Got any info on that?

Thanks,

Chuck
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,494
Reaction score
555
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
Thanks for this, Binchois. However, I don't think you understood my second question. B6.4 is talking about going from to / from the bridge location IN THE BRIDGE HEX. I'm talking about going directly from DD5 (NOT a bridge hex) to UNDER the bridge. Got any info on that?

Thanks,

Chuck
Sorry! Your're right - I misunderstood. The bridge does not prevent a unit from entering the gully directly.
 

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
Sorry! Your're right - I misunderstood. The bridge does not prevent a unit from entering the gully directly.
That is so weird. I could have sworn it did. Oh, well. Faulty memory. Comes with age. Pretty soon, I'll be like Trump, claiming my dad was born in Germany! lol
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
You can't be underneath the bridge at ground level, ie crest status of the stream.
You can only be in the stream/gully and so at -1.
So you can't be seen in the example given.
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,494
Reaction score
555
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
You can't be underneath the bridge at ground level, ie crest status of the stream.
You can only be in the stream/gully and so at -1.
So you can't be seen in the example given.
Besides that the RB says the opposite is true, this has already been confirmed by Q&A:

Q. B6.2 Does a unit under a bridge counter have a LOS/LOF to a unit on the road adjacent to and accessing the bridge counter? (i.e. ASL RB page B6.2 example ... a unit under the bridge in CC5 attacking a unit in DD5.)​

A. YES a LOS exists.​
You're right that Crest status beneath a Bridge is impermissible (B20.9), but LOS does exist and hindrance doesn't apply (as stated in the above post#2).
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
My mistake, I thought it was the German firing at the Russian once it was under the bridge.

Which when I look at it again would also be legal anyway?

Pretty sure you can't go DD5 to under the bridge though?
 
Last edited:

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
What else would go mean?

Is there a specific rule that allows that move? I looked but couldn't see one.
 

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
You can't be underneath the bridge at ground level, ie crest status of the stream.
You can only be in the stream/gully and so at -1.
So you can't be seen in the example given.

Wait a second. Yes I can, right? If I'm in DD5, I'm Adjaccent, so I can see into the Depression. Why wouldn't I be able to?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,068
Reaction score
5,213
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
What else would go mean?

Is there a specific rule that allows that move? I looked but couldn't see one.
There is no rule that denies the movement. Units are allowed to enter a depression under a bridge. Once that is allowed, there would have to be rule denying entrance across a road hexside, and there isn't one AFAIK. Given that there is a location ON the bridge, that location could be entered from anywhere too except for the fact that B6.4 limits such movement to across the road hexsides or by scaling.

JR
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
My thought (and my gaming buddies from, granted, a couple of decades ago) was that the inability to gain crest status in a bridge hex meant that you couldn't cross the crest to get to the depression.
Of course, that non-crest restriction could just mean you can't line an entire squad along the crest underneath the bridge (well you could but some would only see one way, some the other and the rest nothing at all) which may be leads to it being a valid movement path.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,068
Reaction score
5,213
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
My thought (and my gaming buddies from, granted, a couple of decades ago) was that the inability to gain crest status in a bridge hex meant that you couldn't cross the crest to get to the depression.
Of course, that non-crest restriction could just mean you can't line an entire squad along the crest underneath the bridge (well you could but some would only see one way, some the other and the rest nothing at all) which may be leads to it being a valid movement path.
My belief is that you can't enter crest in a bridge hex because the rules would be too hard to write. Can a unit in crest fire at a unit on the bridge? What are the DRM? What bridge DRM apply to the units in crest if they are in crest on the far side of the bridge? And so on. Just disallow it. But I wasn't there when the rules were written.

JR
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
My belief is that you can't enter crest in a bridge hex because the rules would be too hard to write. Can a unit in crest fire at a unit on the bridge? What are the DRM? What bridge DRM apply to the units in crest if they are in crest on the far side of the bridge? And so on. Just disallow it. But I wasn't there when the rules were written.

JR
Yes I agree and the difficulties I outlined in my reply add to that. Having said that though ASL doesn't really just disallow things because they are in the too hard basket so I feel it is reasonable to suggest that crest status isn't allowed in a bridge hex mainly because there is a bloody great bridge sitting on the crest.

The thinking in my group extended from that was to say that as you couldn't ever be in crest status under a bridge, then you also couldn't enter a depression from a bridge road hexside as when you enter a depression you have to cross the crest and therefore, even if only momentarily, you are in a crest status. That is supported by the allowance for a unit to reduce its MP expenditure upon entering the hex to remain in Crest status.
 

Larry

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
3,634
Reaction score
139
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
(unless that LOS is traced only through the road depiction of the Bridge).
Do you read this as LOS between DD5 and CC5(-1) is neither hindered nor blocked? I read it as blocked by the road/bridge.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,068
Reaction score
5,213
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Do you read this as LOS between DD5 and CC5(-1) is neither hindered nor blocked? I read it as blocked by the road/bridge.
Roads never block LOS. Bridges only block LOS from the bridge location to below [B6.2]. You got rules references where you read it?

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,060
Reaction score
2,542
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
Do you read this as LOS between DD5 and CC5(-1) is neither hindered nor blocked? I read it as blocked by the road/bridge.
That LOS is clear. Terrain in the target's hex in general (there are some exceptions, bypass e.g.) do not block the LOS to the target.
 
Top