Bridge LOF B 6.2 / Hindrance

CHERDE

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Bridge LOS/LOF B6.2

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:?: Does a unit under a bridge counter have a LOS/LOF to a unit on the road adjacent to and accessing the bridge counter? (i.e. ASL RB page B5 6.2 example ... a unit under the bridge in CC5 attacking a unit in DD5.)

Rob MacDonald

Today, 09:52 #2
CHERDE


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Posts: 1 YES a LOS exists.
ASLRB B 6.2 2nd sentence


I refer to this short thread and want to ask following questions:


a)LOS from 12E10 to unit IN 12E9 (EX pg B18 ASLRB)- Does +1 Hindrance from the bridge apply?

I would say YES because of ASLRB B 6.2 3rd sentence
and because of annual 96, Debriefing B 6.2
Also there is a comparable situation regarding smoke in annual 96, Debriefing A 24.4 and in Journal#1 pg. 7/8 "Smoke gets in your eyes".


b) DFF from unit IN 12F8 to moving unit IN 12E9 - Does FFMO apply?

I would say NO, because its Open Ground, B 19.3. and there is no Hindrance BETWEEN firer and target, A 6.7


c)LOS from unit IN 13J5 to unit IN 13L6 (EX pg B4 ASLRB)- Does +1 Hindrance from the bridge apply?

I would say NO, because both, firer AND target, are beneath the level of the bridge, ASLRB B 6.2 3rd sentence .


d)LOS from unit IN 13J5 to unit IN 13L6 BUT there is no elevated road and the bridge is at ground level (EX pg B4 ASLRB)- Does +1 Hindrance from the bridge apply?

I would say NO, because both, firer AND target, are beneath the level of the bridge, ASLRB B 6.2 3rd sentence = same answer as c)
 

CHERDE

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Huh? still no answers

is my question too simple or to hard?

or is my verbiage wrong (am a non-native speaker)?
 

Ole Boe

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Well, I usually try to answer such questions, but in this case I never got around to doing it because I would need boards 12 and 13 to do so.

Provide an illustration in the thread, and the answers will come tumling in.
 

CHERDE

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Thank You
I referred to Examples in the Rule Book
In the Rulebook there are the parts of the maps I mentioned
You can see the hexes, bridges in the rulebook

EX Example
pg page
## page number
ASLRB Rule Book 2nd edition
 

alanp

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CHERDE--

would agree with your answers except for b); your answer, "no", doesn't jibe with your reasons. If gullies are OG (B19.3) and there's no intervening hindrances, then FFMO would apply, right?
 

Ole Boe

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CHERDE said:
a)LOS from 12E10 to unit IN 12E9 (EX pg B18 ASLRB)- Does +1 Hindrance from the bridge apply?

I would say YES because of ASLRB B 6.2 3rd sentence
and because of annual 96, Debriefing B 6.2
Also there is a comparable situation regarding smoke in annual 96, Debriefing A 24.4 and in Journal#1 pg. 7/8 "Smoke gets in your eyes".
I disagree.
The LOS is drawn to the bridge, while B6.2 (3rd sentence) requires the LOS to be drawn through it.
The presence of the bridge is enough to make this LOS to not Open Ground (for FFMO etc. purposes) though, as per A6.7

b) DFF from unit IN 12F8 to moving unit IN 12E9 - Does FFMO apply?

I would say NO, because its Open Ground, B19.3. and there is no Hindrance BETWEEN firer and target, A6.7
There is no TEM and the Hindrance doesn't apply at all when both the firer and target are below the bridge level, so the answer should be YES, FFMO applies.

c)LOS from unit IN 13J5 to unit IN 13L6 (EX pg B4 ASLRB)- Does +1 Hindrance from the bridge apply?

I would say NO, because both, firer AND target, are beneath the level of the bridge, ASLRB B 6.2 3rd sentence .
Correct.

d)LOS from unit IN 13J5 to unit IN 13L6 BUT there is no elevated road and the bridge is at ground level (EX pg B4 ASLRB)- Does +1 Hindrance from the bridge apply?

I would say NO, because both, firer AND target, are beneath the level of the bridge, ASLRB B 6.2 3rd sentence = same answer as c)
Still correct.
 
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CHERDE

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alanp said:
CHERDE--

would agree with your answers except for b); your answer, "no", doesn't jibe with your reasons. If gullies are OG (B19.3) and there's no intervening hindrances, then FFMO would apply, right?
Yes Youre right
the answer should be YES
FFMO does apply

I had a typo in me brain
 

CHERDE

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I agree with your answers to bcd), especially to question b) YES, FFMO should apply.

Regarding question a) I still disagree.
You say that the LOS is to the bridge - but actually it is to the Location beneath the bridge.

I would make my case saying the LOS starts in E10 level O, goes through E9 level 9 (passing through the Hindrance of the bridge) and ends in E9 level -1.
The following sources a dealing with target/firer in a smoked hex just above the smoke and rule that Hindrance apllies to LOS to lower hexes:
-Annual 96, Debriefing A 24.4 -3rd case-
-Journal#1 pg. 7/8 "Smoke gets in your eyes".
-Journal#1 Debriefing 98 A 24.4 - regarding smoke in cellar hexes at level 0

Annual 96, Debriefing B 6.2 defines the extent of the Hindrance which includes Level 0 in E9.


Regarding Your quote "...The presence of the bridge is enough to make this LOS to not Open Ground (for FFMO etc. purposes) though, as per A6.7..." I have to point that there is no rule defining the bridge as non open ground terrain, like B 14.3
I would doubt that without help of "my" Hindrance in E9 level 0 FFMO would not apply. If the Hindrance in E9 does not apply, then FFMO does apply.
 

CHERDE

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I agree with your answers to bcd), especially to question b) YES, FFMO should apply.

Regarding question a) I still disagree.
You say that the LOS is to the bridge - but actually it is to the Location beneath the bridge.

I would make my case saying the LOS starts in E10 level O, goes through E9 level 0 (passing through the Hindrance of the bridge) and ends in E9 level -1.
The following sources a dealing with target/firer in a smoked hex just above or just beneath the smoke and rule that Hindrance apllies to LOS to lower hexes:
-Annual 96, Debriefing A 24.4 -3rd case-
-Journal#1 pg. 7/8 "Smoke gets in your eyes".
-Journal#1 Debriefing 98 A 24.4 - regarding smoke in cellar hexes at level 0

Annual 96, Debriefing B 6.2 defines the extent of the Hindrance which includes Level 0 in E9.


Regarding Your quote "...The presence of the bridge is enough to make this LOS to not Open Ground (for FFMO etc. purposes) though, as per A6.7..." I have to point that there is no rule defining the bridge as non open ground terrain, like B 14.3
I would doubt that without help of "my" Hindrance in E9 level 0 FFMO would not apply. If the Hindrance in E9 does not apply, then FFMO does apply.

sorry I had to make corrections in BOLD
 

Ole Boe

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CHERDE said:
Regarding question a) I still disagree.
You say that the LOS is to the bridge - but actually it is to the Location beneath the bridge.

I would make my case saying the LOS starts in E10 level O, goes through E9 level 0 (passing through the Hindrance of the bridge) and ends in E9 level -1.
I understand your logic, but I don't think this is supported by the rules. You could just as well say that the LOS goes E10/0, E10/-1, E9/-1

The following sources a dealing with target/firer in a smoked hex just above or just beneath the smoke and rule that Hindrance apllies to LOS to lower hexes:
-Annual 96, Debriefing A 24.4 -3rd case-
-Journal#1 pg. 7/8 "Smoke gets in your eyes".
-Journal#1 Debriefing 98 A 24.4 - regarding smoke in cellar hexes at level 0
I don't think this is relevant for the Bridge hindrance, since the two hindrances are defined very differently.

B6.2 says:
... a non-pontoon bridge does Hinder any LOS drawn through it...

while A24.4 says:
All Direct Fire and on-board mortar fire traced into, through, within, or out of (see 24.8) a SMOKE Location is affected...

But the clear answer is (IMHO) found in A6.7:
"Being in a LOS Hindrance hex [EXC: SMOKE (24.2) and FFE Hindrance (C1.57)] does not hinder the LOS of a firing or target unit; it is only the presence of a LOS Hindrance hex between the same-level firing and target units ... that forms a LOS Hindrance ... "

It says more, but this is the important part. It makes clear that with the exception of SMOKE and FFE, the LOS must go through the hex.

Annual 96, Debriefing B 6.2 defines the extent of the Hindrance which includes Level 0 in E9.
I don't see how you reach that conclusion...

Regarding Your quote "...The presence of the bridge is enough to make this LOS to not Open Ground (for FFMO etc. purposes) though, as per A6.7..." I have to point that there is no rule defining the bridge as non open ground terrain, like B 14.3
I would doubt that without help of "my" Hindrance in E9 level 0 FFMO would not apply. If the Hindrance in E9 does not apply, then FFMO does apply.
I must agree with you. A6.7 says:
"The presence of such a Hindrance always negates Interdiction and FFMO."
...and I read this to mean in-hex, even though the +1 Hindrance DRM doesn't apply, but I no longer think so.


sorry I had to make corrections in BOLD
You have an "edit" button below each post made by you, where you can edit your previous post, instead of making a new.
 

CHERDE

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Ole Boe said:
I understand your logic, but I don't think this is supported by the rules. You could just as well say that the LOS goes E10/0, E10/-1, E9/-1.
I cannot think this way becaouse theres no E10/-1 but there is a E9/0!


Ole Boe said:
But the clear answer is (IMHO) found in A6.7:
"Being in a LOS Hindrance hex [EXC: SMOKE (24.2) and FFE Hindrance (C1.57)] does not hinder the LOS of a firing or target unit; it is only the presence of a LOS Hindrance hex between the same-level firing and target units ... that forms a LOS Hindrance ... "

It says more, but this is the important part. It makes clear that with the exception of SMOKE and FFE, the LOS must go through the hex.
.
You missed the wording in A 6.7 "same level firing and target unit". The "normal" LOS rules apply to same level LOS which is not the case in my case.


Ole Boe said:
I don't see how you reach that conclusion...
.
The hindrance just exists in Location Level 0 in hex E9 .
 

Ole Boe

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CHERDE said:
I cannot think this way becaouse theres no E10/-1 but there is a E9/0!
But the LOS goes in a straight line, even through air. There is simply no rule telling us to count the LOS as stair steps along playable levels.

You missed the wording in A 6.7 "same level firing and target unit". The "normal" LOS rules apply to same level LOS which is not the case in my case.
But this is the general rule. A bit later, A6.7 also says that bridge hindrance applies for different level LOS, but there is no exception to the "through (not just into or out of)" requirement for any hindrances except SMOKE and FFE, so it still applies.

For another possibly relevant rule about LOS going under an object, check the B23.72 Marketplace rule. The level 1 building Location does not block LOS to the level 0 level. Change the building for a bridge, and it would make sense that the bridge doesn't hinder the LOS either.
 

CKS04

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Bridge LOF B 6.2 / Hindrance

Christian,

I think Ole is right. The bridge by itsself will provide no cover/LOS Hindrance.

At least that's the way we always played it. I knew that we had some discussion about this too some time ago and tried to look it up but always came out with the same. The bridge will provide no cover. I always imagine the situiation in this way, that the Attacker is positioned directly near the bridge having a free LOS into the depression.

BTW, I'am pretty sure that if the bridge would be in 12D9 and you fire from 12B10 at a unit in 12E9 then the bridge also wouldn't provide any cover.
 

CHERDE

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I see the points You are making but i am still not convinced.

Because of annual 96, Debriefing B 6.2 - regarding smoke and RB cellars.Hindrance did apply.

(Ole wrote an article "Stop and Go traffic" in this annual)


Also there is a comparable situation regarding smoke in annual 96, Debriefing A 24.4 and in Journal#1 pg. 7/8 "Smoke gets in your eyes", I think it was examining a situation with smoke just under the feet in the same hex of the higer level firer/target. Hindrance did apply.


@Ole
"...But the LOS goes in a straight line, even through air. There is simply no rule telling us to count the LOS as stair steps along playable levels...."

I agree with you in that. For a systematic reason the rules should stick to this axiom.:halo:


@S04
I will check your LOS when I have maps handy.

BTW: Donezk/(former:Stalino) will be "a tough nut to crack".
 

CHERDE

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smoke gets in your eyes

hi schalker = CKS04,

1) regarding your example:

case a) if the target is in 12E9 (A.6 = that is in crest status) then of course there is a LOS and the bridge hindrance applies. Target and firer a same level, that is level 0.

case b) if the target is IN 12E9 (A.6 = that is in the depression at level –1) then the light green open ground level 0 terrain crossed by the LOF in 12D9 would block LOS (B 19.2 and A 6.3). The LOF is not entirely in the depression artwork!

case c) Lets suppose the LOF would not cross the light green open ground level 0 terrain in 12D9 then the bridge in 12D9 would give hindrance DRM.

I suppose you didnt have access to Annual 96, Q+A, B 6.2 which I will cite as far as neccessary:

"Q. How is a non-pontoon bridge counter treated for LOS purposes?

A. As per B 6.2, but each such counter is also Inherent terrain (B.6). ... In addition, all non-pontoon bridge counters and printed bridges are one-and-a-half level LOS Hindrances rising from one level < that of the bridge location ... "

Aloso B 6.2 3rd sentence rules that hindrandce would apply in this case c).



2) hi ole

rethinking the issue again and again I stick to my opinion.

My oinion is further reinforced by Annual 96, Q+A, A 24.4 which handels a situation similar to the one in Jounal#1 "Smoke gets in your eyes". There is smoke just under the feet of the higher level unit.

 
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