Brain fade with planes

[aneil1234]

Drop a bomb on a building hex. Cellar and ground floor have unconcelaed units (and both fortified) top floor empty and not.
Does the Top floor location get the Case K (Concealed) mod as well to a hit on empty location

Very old QA says the AUTOMATIC pin from a Stuka does not strip ? (reguardless of LoS to on ground units). Is this STILL the correct and current thinking of this rule ?
Or strip if in LoS no strip if out

Thanks

 

[jrv]

Drop a bomb on a building hex. Cellar and ground floor have unconcelaed units (and both fortified) top floor empty and not.
Does the Top floor location get the Case K (Concealed) mod as well to a hit on empty location

Very old QA says the AUTOMATIC pin from a Stuka does not strip ? (reguardless of LoS to on ground units). Is this STILL the correct and current thinking of this rule ?
Or strip if in LoS no strip if out

If there are units in the hex, the top floor cannot be hit, i.e. as long as there is a legitimate target, empty Locations are not hit. From the q&a:

C3. & C6.2 Assume the following situation: A Mortar is 6 hexes away from a building hex that contains a concealed enemy unit. No To Hit DRM apply, so the Basic To Hit Number for the Area Target Type is 7 and vs. the concealed unit Case K (+2) applies. So I need a 5 or less to hit the concealed unit. If I roll a 6 or 7 I miss the concealed unit but do I still “hit” the building so I can roll an effects DR vs. it to possibly rubble it ?
A. No.

Concealment loss is caused by being attacked resulting in a PTC or better [A12.14]. The Pin effect of a stuka is not a PTC from an attack, so on that basis the unit does not become lose concealment, and there is no other cause for losing concealment just for becoming pinned, i.e. the taking of the PTC is the cause for concealment loss, not becoming pinned.

JR

 

[aneil1234]

Thanks mate

The answer to the first one is not quite what I expected
I assumed that a bomb on building effects each location in that hex
ah well

So does this mean a bomber can't target a hex just to blow it upp etc ?

But that pin thingy confirms what I nutted out in the end


a quick PS question
Does the additional +1 per level apply for bombs like OBA. We thought not

 

[jrv]

So does this mean a bomber can't target a hex just to blow it upp etc ?

This is more complicated than it might seem. Per E7.3 a plane may not make a Sighting Task Check against an (apparently) empty hex [EXC: Observation Planes]. However once it has begun its attack it may use MGs and/or bombs against an "empty" hex. This might happen when the unit which allowed the STC was eliminated in the first attack of a point attack. Another case where it is possible: the plane conducts a strafing attack and uses its MGs/bomb against a later hex in the strafing run.

a quick PS question
Does the additional +1 per level apply for bombs like OBA. We thought not

No. A plane does not use Indirect Fire, which is where the +1 per level above TEM comes from [B23.32].

JR

 

[aneil1234]

Okay mate
I'm getting a little more confused now so hope you don't mind if I am going to spell out the exact circumstances and may be get a better insight from that

Red barricades
multi-hex building, hex in our example is N5
Stuka attacking which passes its sighting task check.

In the hex from bottom to top is
cellar (fortified cellar location +4) - 447 pinned with a medium machine gun
ground floor (fortified building location +4) - 458 also pinned with a light machine gun
top floor (empty as far as I know not fortified +3)

Bomb dropped. Infantry target type Mod TH 8 with +4 for cellar and ground floor, and I would have thought a +3 for the top floor
DR 2,3 +4

So Miss on the units in the cellar and the ground floor, but would seem to be so for a unit on the top floor

So if there had been another unit on the top floor it would have gotten +3 and thus been hit by 200 mm bomb, with a good chance of rubbling that location at least if not more
but because there is no unit there it at this time the bomb has no effect ?
I would have thought case K (concealment) would have applied but reading what you've written above it doesn't even need that as its not a location attacked at all ?

Is that right ?

 

[jrv]

I would have thought case K (concealment) would have applied but reading what you've written above it doesn't even need that as its not a location attacked at all ?

As far as I understand there is no attack in that case. As long as there are legitimate targets, only the legitimate targets are hit. If the hex does not contain legitimate targets then empty locations can be hit for pure terrain attacks. In your example it wouldn't matter as the +2 for concealment on the upper level would cause the attack to be a miss if the location is empty.

And you have also overlooked the rooftop location, +0 TEM for a stuka. If aircraft or other heavy weapons could just hit rooftops when other legitimate targets were present, it wouldn't matter if the legitimate target was fortified. Hit the rooftop, rubble it & (with the right falling rubble dr) knock down the whole building. That would be a bad abuse of the rules. It actually is probably not good with empty buildings and probably should be fixed, but I don't think it's a sleaze that would be used very often. Certainly not for stuka because they can't drop a bomb unless using a point attack and they can't make a STC against an empty hex.

JR

 

[aneil1234]

Again, thanks as always for your replies.

Ok. I think I now have it worked out enough in my own vague head to get it right next time

The little ""Sleezy" bit is avoided (I Think) by B23.86 which says rooftops can't be rubbled themselves................ If the bits underneath fall down then funny enough its gone

 

[jrv]

The little ""Sleezy" bit is avoided (I Think) by B23.86 which says rooftops can't be rubbled themselves................ If the bits underneath fall down then funny enough its gone

B23.86, "For HE attacks vs a playable rooftop Location, check for rubble instead in the Location beneath the rooftop." The rooftop is hit; the top non-rooftop location is checked for rubble.

JR