Bounding First Fire question

Jazz

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The situation, a stopped Sherman wants to take a BFF shot at an enemy unit. He wants to do it as a stopped vehicle. It is the very first action he wants to perform in his movement phase.

Does he need to spend a delay MP to take the shot before he expends a start MP?

Put another way, does a BFF shot required to be associated with a specific MP expenditure?

Please include rules citations.
 
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Vinnie

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No, but the enemy unit can gun duel him.

C5.33....If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP.
 

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C5.3

Vehicular (including Passenger) ordnance which fires during its MPh
(D3.3) must use one of the Case C DRM (i.e., it must add the +2 DRM of
Case B to the applicable Gun Type DRM of Case C) as Bounding First
Fire for any shot it takes. A vehicle with a Multiple ROF may not fire
again until it has expended another MP (even if only a Delay MP).
A vehicle does not expend MP to shoot but must separate each shot with an MP.
 

BattleSchool

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According to the D3 AFV Phase/Motion Fire Modifiers Table, if the target is out of the tank's current TCA, the Sherman would need to expend a Delay MP in order to change TCA. Also, Area Target Type is NA (e.g., no SMOKE).
 

JoeArthur

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No, but the enemy unit can gun duel him.
Now here's a question for you please Martin.

So I have read the gun duel rules and cannot undestand them 🤣

I have had the case where a tank is adjacent to some infantry. Say the tank is CE or they are 1945 German infantry packing as many Pf's as is possible to carry.

The tank fires it's machine guns. My infantry can do nothing - no MP spent. It then fires its MA because otherwise that is lost (tank wants to leave the hex). What happens with the gun duel rules then please on that shot?
 

BattleSchool

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IIRC, Gun Duels apply to Guns. So unless your adjacent Infantry is manning a Gun, I don't believe they have a DFF option until the tank expends a MP.

Note that in your Infantry example, the tank fires its MG as Area Fire and Case C applies to the tank's TH.

Unless the tank has to change CA to fire on the Infantry--in which case it'll have to expend at least 1 MP in Delay, I don't think there is any case where the Infantry could DFF before the tank fires. Indeed, I believe that the tank could fire while CE, then go BU on its Start MP, without giving the Infantry an opportunity to fire on the crew.

Whatever the case, Gun Duels sound like a good candidate for The Bishop Says.
 
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Jazz

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IIRC, Gun Duels apply to Guns. So unless your adjacent Infantry is manning a Gun, I don't believe they have a DFF option until the tank expends a MP.

......

Whatever the case, Gun Duels sound like a good candidate for The Bishop Says.
I have it from an authoritative source such an article is in process.

I would beg to differ.....from the compiled Q&A:
C2.2401, C5.33, & D7.21
A vehicle is in bypass of an Infantry Unit in a woods hex. The vehicle declares Bounding First Fire against the Infantry Unit prior
to expending any MP. Can the Infantry Unit declare a Gun Duel? If the Infantry Unit wins the Gun Duel can it use CC Reaction
Fire (D7.21) as its attack?
A. Yes, if not held in Melee (e.g., vehicle was in Motion). Yes. {4}
I see nothing that would preclude a targeted infantry not in the same hex wouldn't be able to declare a duel as well? I agree it does seem to fly in the face of the first sentence of C2.2401.
 
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Vinnie

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Now here's a question for you please Martin.

So I have read the gun duel rules and cannot undestand them 🤣

I have had the case where a tank is adjacent to some infantry. Say the tank is CE or they are 1945 German infantry packing as many Pf's as is possible to carry.

The tank fires it's machine guns. My infantry can do nothing - no MP spent. It then fires its MA because otherwise that is lost (tank wants to leave the hex). What happens with the gun duel rules then please on that shot?
The tank declares a shot as it's first action. Either MG or main armament and the Infantry target can declared gun duel.
The modifiers are calculated as if they were using a to hit roll so +2 case B +2 case c1 BU as applicable. Armour leader maybe cx maybe.
Normally the Infantry will get to fire first.
They can't fire prior to the tank going BU as there is no gin duel possibility there.
 

Vinnie

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I'm thinking a pinned CX unit +3 would lose the an open topped halftrack firing it's AAMG.(+2)
 

BattleSchool

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The tank declares a shot as it's first action. Either MG or main armament and the Infantry target can declared gun duel.
The modifiers are calculated as if they were using a to hit roll so +2 case B +2 case c1 BU as applicable. Armour leader maybe cx maybe.
Normally the Infantry will get to fire first.
They can't fire prior to the tank going BU as there is no gin duel possibility there.
But if the tank doesn't BU before declaring BFF, it would be CE against any attack that the DEFENDER was able to make as a result of declaring and winning a Gun Duel. Right?
 

Vinnie

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IIRC, Gun Duels apply to Guns. So unless your adjacent Infantry is manning a Gun, I don't believe they have a DFF option until the tank expends a MP.

Note that in your Infantry example, the tank fires its MG as Area Fire and Case C applies to the tank's TH.

Unless the tank has to change CA to fire on the Infantry--in which case it'll have to expend at least 1 MP in Delay, I don't think there is any case where the Infantry could DFF before the tank fires. Indeed, I believe that the tank could fire while CE, then go BU on its Start MP, without giving the Infantry an opportunity to fire on the crew.

Whatever the case, Gun Duels sound like a good candidate for The Bishop Says.
Any unit being fired upon may declare a gun duel. They do not need to be guns.

The order of fire for non-ordnance/SW is determined as if it were ordnance [EXC: TH Case A can apply to non-ordnance/SW only if mounted-on/aboard a vehicle that is changing CA; all such non-turret-mounted fire is considered NT for purposes of TH Case


And from C5.33
A vehicle wishing to fire at the start of its MPh prior to entry of a new hex (or one that has had a continuous LOS to its target since before the MPh) may do so using Case C; it need not expend Delay MP first to avoid having to use Case C1 or C2. If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP.
 

Vinnie

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But if the tank doesn't BU before declaring BFF, it would be CE against any attack that the DEFENDER was able to make as a result of declaring and winning a Gun Duel. Right?
Yes but he's still getting +2 Case B+2 case C for +4. If he's got a decent AL then that might help. The AL applies to Gun Duels even if he doesn't apply to attacks and font forget the sherman 75 halves all Gun duel DRM so a +4 becomes +2 so he can fire prior to a cx pinned squad, but not prior to one that's just cx
 

BattleSchool

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I have it from an authoritative source such an article is in process.

I would beg to differ.....from the compiled Q&A:


I see nothing that would preclude a targeted infantry not in the same hex wouldn't be able to declare a duel as well? I agree it does seem to fly in the face of the first sentence of C2.2401.
As I said, an article on Gun Duels would be most welcome, especially if it includes a comprehensive set of examples that involve. Perhaps because it doesn't come up that often, I never considered declaring a Gun Duel with Infantry in order to conduct a CC Reaction Fire attack.

Great thread. I'm actually beginning to understand how D2.2401 works. Thanks.
 
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BattleSchool

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Yes but he's still getting +2 Case B+2 case C for +4. If he's got a decent AL then that might help. The AL applies to Gun Duels even if he doesn't apply to attacks and font forget the sherman 75 halves all Gun duel DRM so a +4 becomes +2 so he can fire prior to a cx pinned squad, but not prior to one that's just cx
No argument with your math. I was simply pointing out that the CE/BU status would need to be changed before declaring BFF, and if CE, Joe's trigger-happy Jerries could engage the CE crew (either before or after the BFF attack, depending on who won the Gun Duel).

Moreover, if the vehicle wanted to be immune to IFT, the crew would have to BU before it made its MG attack, as BFF would lock the BU/CE status until the APh. If the vehicle remained CE, the Infantry could declare a Gun Duel vs the MG attack and if successful could attack the crew with IFT. Correct?
 
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Vinnie

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As my initial reply to you shows, I cannot read. <face palm>

I'll have to be careful with my Panthers next week. I see Gun Duels in their futures. :(
Oh yes,the 75 sherwani versus the panther is a classic. Heroes up behind you, you cannot wait fir him to stop so you have to turn with bmg, cmg or MA. Of hecam keep going round you, you're in a very bad place indeed. Stops, goes CE and hits on a 9 (+4 move, -2 adj, -1 large target) kills on a 9, 10 if rear
 

Jazz

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Oh yes,the 75 sherwani versus the panther is a classic. Heroes up behind you, you cannot wait fir him to stop so you have to turn with bmg, cmg or MA. Of hecam keep going round you, you're in a very bad place indeed. Stops, goes CE and hits on a 9 (+4 move, -2 adj, -1 large target) kills on a 9, 10 if rear
Doing it with a Stuart vs a Panther from a rear facing is even more fun.....not a sure thing but distinctly within the realm of pedestrian (as opposed to "FANTASTIC") good luck. More than enough to make the owner of the Panther look distinctly uncomfortable....he really wants to ignore it, but it's just, well....uncomfortable.
 
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johnl

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I think "the order of fire for non-ordnance/SW..." phrase in the GunDuel rule is a source of confusion, at least it has been for me. Is "order" time related (what happens first, second, etc), or command related (you shoot now), or something else?
 

BattleSchool

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I think "the order of fire for non-ordnance/SW..." phrase in the GunDuel rule is a source of confusion, at least it has been for me. Is "order" time related (what happens first, second, etc), or command related (you shoot now), or something else?
IMO, this rule suffers from the same ailment as other complex rules such as OVR, where the examples provided tend only to address the more readily comprehensible aspects of the rule.

In the case of Gun Duels, it could have benefitted from examples such as how a DEFENDER with a LMG would go about declaring and resolving a Gun Duel vs a "tin can," or against a CE crew. Another example might demonstrate exactly how the who-shoots-first calculation works between an OT AFV and DEFENDING Infantry that isn't the target of the declared BFF attack, or how multiple Gun Duels look in practice when a second DEFENDING unit declares a Gun Duel. Each EX would spell out the DRM involved and explain which side shoots first and why.

IMO, the rules for Gun Duels generally exist for the benefit of the ATTACKER, providing Moving vehicles with a special opportunity to BFF before a DFF attack can be made against a particular MP expenditure. Because the situations where a DEFENDER may declare a Gun Duel are much less common--indeed, the rule allowing a DEFENDER to declare a Gun Duel initially (as distinguished from initiating a second Gun Duel under C2.2401) is tucked away in C5.33, I'd argue that this part of the rule is not well understood. I'm only now beginning to see the full extent of what C5.33 offers the DEFENDER.
 
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