Legion
Member
The question came up about Boresighting at Night, i am pretty sure this is illegal but am unable to find a rule number to justify my position, anyone know the rule?
Boresight at Night
- Thread starter Legion
- Start date
Chris Milne
Member
No.
But I do know that MGs can use their bore-sighted Location to place fire lanes at night beyond NVR (etc.) - see E1.71.
But I do know that MGs can use their bore-sighted Location to place fire lanes at night beyond NVR (etc.) - see E1.71.
Reepicheep
Member
Can we have some references, please.Chris Milne said:
For me, I haven't yet read anything that prohibits it at night. E1.74 says Target Acquisition DRM (C6.5) are NA at night unless the target is illuminated, but Bore Sighting is not "Target Acquisition". TA has its own rules section, which E1.74 correctly points to (C6.5) but Bore Sighting is dealt with seperately in C6.4 and I cannot see anything in that section which prohibits bore sighting at night.
A related question regarding MG boresighting: How can an MG boresight a location beyond NVR, when the boresighting rules (C6.42) require the boresighted location to be within LOS of the weapon or its spotter? I do agree E1.71 is allowing this, but it does seem to contradict the requirement in C6.42.
alanp
Philosopher of ASL
The main limit to bore-sighting at night comes from the stipulation that the bore-sighted Location must be in LOS. If your night scenario starts at NVR=1, you're awfully limited; but not prohibited.
alanp
Philosopher of ASL
Just missed your post, Reep.
A9.22 states that while firelanes must be placed in LOS, NVR is one of the things that doesn't affect LOS/placement of fl for this purpose. A fl wouldn't affect a hex at night that it wouldn't affect in day [an obstacle blocking the center dot of the out-of-LOS hex] but darkness doesn't stop bullets from continuing along their path.
A9.22 states that while firelanes must be placed in LOS, NVR is one of the things that doesn't affect LOS/placement of fl for this purpose. A fl wouldn't affect a hex at night that it wouldn't affect in day [an obstacle blocking the center dot of the out-of-LOS hex] but darkness doesn't stop bullets from continuing along their path.
Chris Milne
Member
Sorry, my initial answer was a bit brief. The 'No' was to indicate that I didn't know of any rules disallowing Boresighting at night.
There's a Q&A permitting MG (only) boresighting beyond NVR.
There's a Q&A permitting MG (only) boresighting beyond NVR.
Reepicheep
Member
Well in BMW 7.1, which Legion and I are in the process of setting up, NVR = 5 so it's a rather small limitation!alanp said:
So I can boresight a location out of my NVR and place a firelane as per usual. If I just fired at that boresighted location though (no firelane), my FP would be halved for firing beyond my NVR? (E1.81)alanp said:
Thanks for clarifying. I had understood your initial "no" to mean it couldn't be done. Now I understand what you meant!Chris Milne said:
Chris Milne
Member
Mmm. You can always place a firelane at night, without regard to NVR, in the following two situations:Reepicheep said:
1. After a shot at a moving unit in LOS;
2. At any time to a Boresighted location after a Starshell/IR has been fired.
E1.71 doesn't permit you to fire a regular shot at a boresighted Location beyond NVR unless it's otherwise permissible under E1.101. The 'boresighted firelane' is placed without a shot at a moving target. So you couldn't use E1.71 to shoot at a moving target out of LOS.
I think.
WaterRabbit
Member
I don't see that. You can only boresight a Location within both LOS and Normal Range (C6.4). So if the NVR is 5 you could boresight any location within 5 hexes. However, if you had a MG you could place a FL as per E1.71. The FL would extend beyond the 5 hexes out to the Normal Range of the MG.Reepicheep said:Well in BMW 7.1, which Legion and I are in the process of setting up, NVR = 5 so it's a rather small limitation!
So I can boresight a location out of my NVR and place a firelane as per usual. If I just fired at that boresighted location though (no firelane), my FP would be halved for firing beyond my NVR? (E1.81)
Thanks for clarifying. I had understood your initial "no" to mean it couldn't be done. Now I understand what you meant!
freightshaker
Member
Going to step away from the rulebook and look at it from a realistic point of view. The idea behind boresighting is having a location presighted and recorded on a range card so that at night the traverse and elevation on the weapon can be set to a certain direction and elevation so as to hit the target/area without seeing it. I think this is what the designers had in mind when they created the rule. Any boreighted location would've been created during the day, before the start of the scenario.
Reepicheep
Member
I think I've got it now. What has been confusing me is the wording of E1.71 which says you place the FL Residual FP counter in a Location that is Bore Sighted by that MG. Not beyond that Bore Sighted Location up to Normal Range, but in the Location boresighted.WaterRabbit said:
Am I just getting hung up on the rules here? In other words, the boresighted location just needs to be along a hexgrain to that MG... and then the FL counter can be placed up to normal range of that MG. That seems to be a little contrary to the specific wording of E1.71, but seems also to make more sense to me.
Legion
Member
So we settled on this Reep? It seems that WaterRabbit's interpretation carries the essence of this particular ruling...
Personally i agree with Freightshaker's opinion about boresighting... they would have been chosen during the day.... but the problem at night is that one cannot see if the enemy happens to be waltzing through that particular location if it is beyond NVR! :laugh:
Personally i agree with Freightshaker's opinion about boresighting... they would have been chosen during the day.... but the problem at night is that one cannot see if the enemy happens to be waltzing through that particular location if it is beyond NVR! :laugh:
Reepicheep
Member
Yes, agreed. Boresighting of my 88's to within 5 hexes! Hmmm... wonder if I can correctly guess some of the OCEAN hexes you'll choose to travel through and bore sight them!
Legion
Member
Assuming you can see them through the SMOKE screen! :devil:
Legion
Member
Hey Brian, is BWM 7.1 your scenario? If so was the boresighting part of your plan for the German defence?
Must say that i find this to be a very interesting little game, have you any idea of balance for it?
Must say that i find this to be a very interesting little game, have you any idea of balance for it?
Reepicheep
Member
Yeah, we're both very much interested in seeing how it goes.
Fascinating terrain, night, OBA and an Amphibious Assault make this one look very cool!
Fascinating terrain, night, OBA and an Amphibious Assault make this one look very cool!
No idea whatsoever. I could never find anyone to play it with. I am the only person around here that will willingly play night. AFAIK, it packs more obscure rules into one scenario than any other. About the only things missing are caves and rice paddies! I mean, a night seaborne assault in broken terrain must be a first.Legion said:
Legion
Member
Brian W said:
Well, if i dont get slaughtered during the landing (got to admit that it is pretty hairy to have 2 waves of 3 boats carrying all one's men with 2 boredighted
88mm AA facing you down! ) then there will be an AAR coming out of this one... i would play it for the map alone!Chris Milne
Member
Ooh, ooh, ooh. Is this Pining for the Fjords? I've played it solitaire, back when I had a passion for figuring out the LC rules. With the pier and the mines?
I'm trying to remember how it went. I'm pretty sure it was a German victory, but can't remember how convincing. I know that an 88 got a CH on one of the LC. And I think that the sniper ran riot amongst the Soviet leaders. So it was probably quite comfortable for the Germans.
If you like that, you'll probably like Water Foul as well. Not quite so rules-heavy.
I'm trying to remember how it went. I'm pretty sure it was a German victory, but can't remember how convincing. I know that an 88 got a CH on one of the LC. And I think that the sniper ran riot amongst the Soviet leaders. So it was probably quite comfortable for the Germans.
If you like that, you'll probably like Water Foul as well. Not quite so rules-heavy.