Bocage LOS and concealment gain

rdw5150

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Hello!

B9.55 talks about if stack claims Bocage TEM to an unit, it is considered out of LOS and in concealment terrain for concealment gain.

What is there are no units in LOS at all to the claiming unit?

Since they are not claiming TEM to an enemy unit from what I read they cannot fulfill the claiming TEM portion of the rule.

So, if there is not concealment terrain in the hex, do they then have to roll to gain concealment?

Thanks!

Peace

Roger
 

jrv

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Short answer: if there are no enemy units with LOS, the unit is capable of claiming bocage TEM vs them all, and therefore qualifies as being out of LOS and in Concealment Terrain. There has to be at least one enemy unit with LOS with the friendly not able to claim bocage TEM to disqualify it. No enemy unit needs to have LOS to qualify the friendly.

JR
 

rdw5150

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I am not convinced the rules support that. At least by my reading of B9.55.

But that is the way it seems to be the way its played.

thanks!

Roger
 

Vinnie

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This needs a Q&A in my opinion. As it stands, if no one can see me in my bocage hex I have to roll to gain concealment while if someone can see me through the bocage I get it automatically. This is a bit silly.
 

jrv

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This needs a Q&A in my opinion. As it stands, if no one can see me in my bocage hex I have to roll to gain concealment while if someone can see me through the bocage I get it automatically. This is a bit silly.
By all means send for it.

JR
 

Gordon

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This needs a Q&A in my opinion. As it stands, if no one can see me in my bocage hex I have to roll to gain concealment while if someone can see me through the bocage I get it automatically. This is a bit silly.
It's Schrödinger's Cat all over again. The observer collapses the wave function. Who knew quantum mechanics was so fundamental to the ASL rules?
?
 

Vinnie

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I've hesitated before since I have no problem with my opponents getting concealed automatically. I suppose it's worth it "for the good of the hobby".
 

Philippe D.

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B9.55 said:
CONCEALMENT: An Infantry/dummy unit capable of claiming bocage TEM vs all enemy (Good-Order/unbroken, as per A12.1) ground units with a LOS to it, is treated as being out of all enemy LOS and in Concealment Terrain for all setup and "?" gain purposes.
It is true that there is a strange kind of logic at work here.

The (mostly) accepted interpretation of B9.55 is that if you are adjacent to Bocage and no enemy is in LOS, then you are considered out of LOS and in Contealment Terrain for concealment gain, so you will become concealed at the end of your turn.

This, in itself, is not too strange: if there are no enemies in LOS, then you are able to claim Bocage TEM vs all of them; the empty set satisfies any "universal" property (meaning: if a set has no elements, all its elements satisfy whatever property you like). But, on the other hand, if no enemies are in LOS, then you are able to claim Bocage TEM vs all of them as well, even when there is no Bocage on the map - and yet, I don't think anyone is pushing for this interpretation.
 

zgrose

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It is true that there is a strange kind of logic at work here.

The (mostly) accepted interpretation of B9.55 is that if you are adjacent to Bocage and no enemy is in LOS, then you are considered out of LOS and in Contealment Terrain for concealment gain, so you will become concealed at the end of your turn.
I'm not sure that is a mostly accepted interpretation as it is a common mistake (or house rule).

It is a bit of an awkward rule but it accomplishes its goals (my interpretation of its goals, of course) of a) granting concealment to units that need it (the ones that can get shot at) and b) preventing concealment spam by units running alongside bocage for no reason other than to scrape off concealment from the leaves. :)
 

Philippe D.

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I'm not sure that is a mostly accepted interpretation as it is a common mistake (or house rule).
That's how I read the rule, and how I've seen it played. If someone sends a Q MMP's way we will know for sure.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Short answer: if there are no enemy units with LOS, the unit is capable of claiming bocage TEM vs them all, and therefore qualifies as being out of LOS and in Concealment Terrain. There has to be at least one enemy unit with LOS with the friendly not able to claim bocage TEM to disqualify it. No enemy unit needs to have LOS to qualify the friendly.
If one looks at the B9.55 example if becomes clearer (IMO) that this is the intention.

In the example, the Germans set up first - i.e., when they set up there will be no enemy units in LOS - and per the example a dummy stack can set up in an Open Ground hex next to bocage, and the two German half-squads can set up using HIP in Open Ground next to Bocage.
 

Vinnie

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Perry replied very quickly.

Concealment Terrain; see also the B9.55 EX.

....Perry
MMP

On May 8, 2019, at 11:53 AM, martin vicca <asl740558@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/bocage-los-and-concealment-gain.151887/

A u it is in an open ground hex that is bordered by bocage.
If all enemy unit which have Los to the unit have it through bocage by virtue of B9.55 it is treated as being out of los and in concealment terrain for purposes of concealment gain.

If the unit has no enemy with los to it, is it treated as being in concealment terrain for purposes of concealment gain or treated as ring in non concealment terrain.
Yours Aye,
Martin Vicca
 

Magpie

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I think "(or capable of claiming) " covers the case where there are no units at all.

As it prevents any silliness, it's pretty clearly the way to go.
 

Vinnie

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I was surprised it hadn't been asked just to have a definitive ruling. I woukd have been shocked if it had gone any other way.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I was surprised it hadn't been asked just to have a definitive ruling. I woukd have been shocked if it had gone any other way.
It has actually been asked before (via Q&A), but the person who asked about it (back in 2017) never posted the answer here on GS (or anywhere else online).
 

Rock SgtDan

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It has actually been asked before (via Q&A), but the person who asked about it (back in 2017) never posted the answer here on GS (or anywhere else online).
This needs a Q&A in my opinion. As it stands, if no one can see me in my bocage hex I have to roll to gain concealment while if someone can see me through the bocage I get it automatically. This is a bit silly.
If you can see that someone sees you, you will sensibly try to hide.
But if you can see that nobody can see you, then some officer will have to order you to get down in the muck. And you will take your time looking for the least mucky spot.
 
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