Boats, Panic and S13.61

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Just want to see if others agree with this rules interpretation with boats and panic. I've got German infantry beached and on assault boats having a mix of morale '7' and '8' troops. S13.61 says FRIENDLY units in boats in water are not subject to panic - unfortunately vague wording the full effects of which we'll get to shortly.

1. Since beached units are not 'in' water I'm thinking that they are still subject to Panic. If an assault boat has both morale '7' and '8' troops loaded and the panic roll is '8' I assume that means the whole assault boat is prevented from unbeaching since either (a) the inherent driver of the boat is morale 7 and thus panics OR (b) some of the passengers are panicked and since an assault boat cannot 'divide' the panicked troops' status prevails. I'm not 100% sure if case (a) or case (b) is the determining rule but I'm leaning toward (b) since they are still beached. [For arguments sake, if the units were on small rafts I'd think the raft counter would just 'split' with the '8' guys unbeaching on a 7pp raft counter and the panicked '7' guys would remain beached on another such counter.]

2. Somewhat more trickily, once in the water it seems like a strict interpretation of S13.61 would suggest that units on assault boats - which have an inherent driver - would still be subject to panic b/c it's the inherent driver that would be taking a panic test (same as if the MMC were in a truck on land,) not the FRIENDLY units that are embarked in the boats (and which are immune to panic.) So you'd have to check panic for such craft, with an '8+' result meaning the boat couldn't move (apart from drift) but the units in the boat could still, for example, fire since they aren't subject to panic. This is where the vague wording I was talking about above comes in. This seems weird and I choose to disregard it in favor of treating assault boats the same as other boats once in the water as immune to panic, inherent crew be damned. And possibly I'm missing something and that's how it should be applied anyway?
 

Ahriman667

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Not sure if it helps, but I would play it as follows.

E5.21 says all "Beached or in the water" is considered a vehicle, which means that S16.34 should apply. That means regardless if the Inherent Crew makes its CMD DR or not, the MMC would only have to take its own in order to perform further actions in that Player Turn.

And as the crew is "not subject to Command Control while on a boat" (S13.61), the MMC should only have to take one if they want to unload, and the Inherent Crew should only have to take one to enter the Water Obstacle. I think that is how I would do it. Or just ignore the crew and make the boats immune to PANIC as you suggest.
 

Honosbinda

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Just want to see if others agree with this rules interpretation with boats and panic. I've got German infantry beached and on assault boats having a mix of morale '7' and '8' troops. S13.61 says FRIENDLY units in boats in water are not subject to panic - unfortunately vague wording the full effects of which we'll get to shortly.

1. Since beached units are not 'in' water I'm thinking that they are still subject to Panic. If an assault boat has both morale '7' and '8' troops loaded and the panic roll is '8' I assume that means the whole assault boat is prevented from unbeaching since either (a) the inherent driver of the boat is morale 7 and thus panics OR (b) some of the passengers are panicked and since an assault boat cannot 'divide' the panicked troops' status prevails. I'm not 100% sure if case (a) or case (b) is the determining rule but I'm leaning toward (b) since they are still beached. [For arguments sake, if the units were on small rafts I'd think the raft counter would just 'split' with the '8' guys unbeaching on a 7pp raft counter and the panicked '7' guys would remain beached on another such counter.]
Yes, I think the beached units are not in the water very clearly (E5.23) and are subject to panic, including both the boat (vehicle) and passengers. Passengers only take the panic check 1) if the vehicle fails, in order to get off the boat and continue from there 2) as soon as they leave the boat under command of the vehicle that passed, they have to take a panic check once they leave the boat, and have become infantry (as per S16.34). Note also 16.35, the vehicle does not need to take a roll if unloading/loading is the only action, but if unloading, I don't see why the vehicle might as well try just to 'kick' the units out of the boat.

The first panic roll is only for the vehicle. So if an 8 is rolled, I think it would pass since CMD rating is one > than it's current morale value (morale 7 +1, S16.2). Note the exception in S16.2 [EXC: a SMC Rider/Passenger may use his own CMD# if it is greater]. If a 9 is rolled, then the vehicle has panicked, and then the MMC on the boats roll again. Note that unless under leader command influence, each MMC will make it's own panic DR, units don't make panic rolls as stacks as far as I could tell. S16.3 does not speak of command rolls for stacks, just units.
2. Somewhat more trickily, once in the water it seems like a strict interpretation of S13.61 would suggest that units on assault boats - which have an inherent driver - would still be subject to panic b/c it's the inherent driver that would be taking a panic test (same as if the MMC were in a truck on land,) not the FRIENDLY units that are embarked in the boats (and which are immune to panic.) So you'd have to check panic for such craft, with an '8+' result meaning the boat couldn't move (apart from drift) but the units in the boat could still, for example, fire since they aren't subject to panic. This is where the vague wording I was talking about above comes in. This seems weird and I choose to disregard it in favor of treating assault boats the same as other boats once in the water as immune to panic, inherent crew be damned. And possibly I'm missing something and that's how it should be applied anyway?
I think the vehicle would need to roll a 9 to panic, per the command level being +1 from it's morale per S16.2. I'm not sure why you think the units in the boat couldn't fire, since they are definitely not subject to panic. I would treat the assault boat as akin to a LC on the water, which apparently are to be treated as vehicles, not pneumatic boats being rowed by the men inside the boat. Rafts aren't vehicles, but Assault boats are.

Interestingly, it is not the 'crew' that takes a panic check, but the vehicle itself. So, I don't think S13.61 applies to the crew of the vehicle rendering the vehicle immune to panic. In other words, 'inherent units' are not considered on the board when rolling for panic, that's why the vehicle rolls, not the inherent crew. If it were the inherent crew, the rules would specify that.

I don't get what vague wording you are speaking of. I think the rules are clear here, even if the results are weird for assault boats and, apparently LC. Sounds like we better man those assault boats and LC with leaders and/or high morale units. While leadership cannot modify an LC or assault boat, apparently command influence still applies.
 

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Suppose ‘paniced’ is somewhere between pinned and broken, just this side of DM.
 
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Yes, I think the beached units are not in the water very clearly (E5.23) and are subject to panic, including both the boat (vehicle) and passengers. Passengers only take the panic check 1) if the vehicle fails, in order to get off the boat and continue from there 2) as soon as they leave the boat under command of the vehicle that passed, they have to take a panic check once they leave the boat, and have become infantry (as per S16.34). Note also 16.35, the vehicle does not need to take a roll if unloading/loading is the only action, but if unloading, I don't see why the vehicle might as well try just to 'kick' the units out of the boat.

The first panic roll is only for the vehicle. So if an 8 is rolled, I think it would pass since CMD rating is one > than it's current morale value (morale 7 +1, S16.2). Note the exception in S16.2 [EXC: a SMC Rider/Passenger may use his own CMD# if it is greater]. If a 9 is rolled, then the vehicle has panicked, and then the MMC on the boats roll again. Note that unless under leader command influence, each MMC will make it's own panic DR, units don't make panic rolls as stacks as far as I could tell. S16.3 does not speak of command rolls for stacks, just units.


I think the vehicle would need to roll a 9 to panic, per the command level being +1 from it's morale per S16.2. I'm not sure why you think the units in the boat couldn't fire, since they are definitely not subject to panic. [This is actually the opposite of what I said] I would treat the assault boat as akin to a LC on the water, which apparently are to be treated as vehicles, not pneumatic boats being rowed by the men inside the boat. Rafts aren't vehicles, but Assault boats are.

Interestingly, it is not the 'crew' that takes a panic check, but the vehicle itself. So, I don't think S13.61 applies to the crew of the vehicle rendering the vehicle immune to panic. In other words, 'inherent units' are not considered on the board when rolling for panic, that's why the vehicle rolls, not the inherent crew. If it were the inherent crew, the rules would specify that.

I don't get what vague wording you are speaking of. I think the rules are clear here, even if the results are weird for assault boats and, apparently LC. Sounds like we better man those assault boats and LC with leaders and/or high morale units. While leadership cannot modify an LC or assault boat, apparently command influence still applies.
I said vague because the rule states that FRIENDLY units 'on a boat' are not subject to panic. If it had said "IN a boat' or 'loaded on a boat' that would have been clear. I suspect you're right that inherent crew are not meant to be included here, but a reasonable case could be made that the inherent crew are 'on' the boat. There's also the question of whether MMC loaded on a beached assault boat (that are not unloading) need to take a panic check or not - S16.34 strongly suggests they don't, but S16.32 only talks about units on a boat 'in the water' - I suspect b/c the author was mostly concerning himself with rafts here.

I also disagree that rafts are not vehicles. I would argue they are simply vehicles w/o inherent crew (the logical alternative would be that they are equipment, like horses or something.) Rafts expend MP as (most) vehicles do, have size modifiers and are attacked by small arms on the unarmored vehicle line when in the water. The distinction is important for some purposes - in particular in SASL for the range at which ENEMY fire is triggered and activating S?.

That's a good catch on S16.2 bullet 3 - I'd forgotten about that.
 

Honosbinda

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I said vague because the rule states that FRIENDLY units 'on a boat' are not subject to panic. If it had said "IN a boat' or 'loaded on a boat' that would have been clear. I suspect you're right that inherent crew are not meant to be included here, but a reasonable case could be made that the inherent crew are 'on' the boat. There's also the question of whether MMC loaded on a beached assault boat (that are not unloading) need to take a panic check or not - S16.34 strongly suggests they don't, but S16.32 only talks about units on a boat 'in the water' - I suspect b/c the author was mostly concerning himself with rafts here.

I also disagree that rafts are not vehicles. I would argue they are simply vehicles w/o inherent crew (the logical alternative would be that they are equipment, like horses or something.) Rafts expend MP as (most) vehicles do, have size modifiers and are attacked by small arms on the unarmored vehicle line when in the water. The distinction is important for some purposes - in particular in SASL for the range at which ENEMY fire is triggered and activating S?.

That's a good catch on S16.2 bullet 3 - I'd forgotten about that.
On the boat, in the boat, as far as I know, both prepositions mean the same thing.

Beached assault boats are explicitly defined as not in the water, so I don't think there is any doubt about that in E5.23: A Beached boat and its Passengers are at the elevation level of the water, but are not in the water.

Interesting about these boats being vehicles. You may be correct by virtue of E5.21: Once Beached or in the water, a boat is considered a vehicle

In which case, even without an inherent driver per se, boats are subject to panic checks in order to be used when beached. That is definitely weird, since it is not vehicles that panic, but crews, not inanimate objects.

It looks to me there is a gap in these solitaire rules about boats and watercraft. If rafts don't have to take a command check on the water, why penalize assault craft for having an inherent driver? And if assault boats don't have to take command checks on the water, then I don't think LC should be taking them either until beached on the shore. Basically those boatswains were trained to take those guys in and get the hell out. The rules for stunning LC should be enough of a penalty. The 16% chance of panicking on top of that, coming to a complete stall in the water, is a bit too much.

Proposed solution/clarification along the lines you proposed: all watercraft/inherent crews/personnel take no panic checks on water. Rafts don't take panic checks when beached, since they are propelled by PRC, which do take the checks when operating/using a beached raft. Assault boats and beached LC do take command checks to get unbeached or to check for command to help get their passengers to unload.
 

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Nothing to add but I like the back and forth of the rules dissection.
 
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Proposed solution/clarification along the lines you proposed: all watercraft/inherent crews/personnel take no panic checks on water. Rafts don't take panic checks when beached, since they are propelled by PRC, which do take the checks when operating/using a beached raft. Assault boats and beached LC do take command checks to get unbeached or to check for command to help get their passengers to unload.
This seems eminently sensible to me and is pretty much where all the discussion was leading me to. I'll have to defer to you on LC - I've never played a beach landing mission/scenario and am entirely ignorant of the rules involved. If/when I do I have a feeling I'll be circling back to this conversation. I've played "Bridgehead" a number of times but always with rafts rather than assault boats.
 
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