Boat Questions

sfcmikej

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Hey Everyone,

Playing DN3 and a boat issue came up that we can't seem to resolve. Shot at a beached assault boat and rolled the kill number. What happens? E5.51 says to resolve the attack on the * vehicle line but doesn't say how to apply the results. E5.5 says how to apply the results but that rule is for boats in the water not beached boats. So what happens to the beached boat that is attacked with the IFT roll equaling the * vehicle kill number?

A secondary question; what happens to an assault boat that is CR'd? It isn't like a raft that can be reduced. Is the passenger reduced but nothing happens to the boat?

Thanks for the help

Mike
 

Honosbinda

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It looks like nothing happens to boats hit with CR except small rafts get reduced when their passengers are CR'd per 5.121 . According to the rule 5.5:

If the Final IFT DR equals the ★ Vehicle Kill Number, one such boat counter in that Location (unless any necessary Random Selection results in a tie dr) [EXC: a three-boat Small Raft counter; 5.121], suffers Casualty Reduction among its Passengers (with no MC/LLMC for survivors); all others are unharmed. Otherwise, boat Passengers cannot be attacked separately [EXC: Snipers;5.54]; they share the fate of their boat instead.

For some reason these rules don't allow immobilization of boat counters. Rubber rafts get punctured and sink per 5.121. Nothing happens to assault boats. If we were to treat these as trucks, such a result would be considered immobilization and thence destruction. But assault boats seem to be more durable.

Again, a boat, whether an assault boat or not, does not suffer with CR except per 5.121.. I guess it's impossible to put bullet holes in the side/motor of an assault boat, in the scope of the game.
 

Carln0130

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Hey Everyone,

Playing DN3 and a boat issue came up that we can't seem to resolve. Shot at a beached assault boat and rolled the kill number. What happens? E5.51 says to resolve the attack on the * vehicle line but doesn't say how to apply the results. E5.5 says how to apply the results but that rule is for boats in the water not beached boats. So what happens to the beached boat that is attacked with the IFT roll equaling the * vehicle kill number?

A secondary question; what happens to an assault boat that is CR'd? It isn't like a raft that can be reduced. Is the passenger reduced but nothing happens to the boat?

Thanks for the help

Mike
Hi guys. Ok, as cross-referenced, convoluted rules explanations go, this is pretty convoluted. However, I 100% believe it to be correct.

The place we start is that an Assault Boat is referred to in E5.1 as a type of Boat. This is important because when boats are thereafter referred to, they are included except if they are specifically excepted.

Next port of call is E5.5. Now I know our boat is not in the water, but this is still important for how the IFT effects it. Only a three Raft boat counter gets effected by being reduced to two counters per E5.121. All other boats are not themselves effected, although the passengers suffer CR. This part is italicized so they are emphasizing it.

Now we head to 5.51. Only the differences between 5.5 and 5.51 are listed here. Nothing is changed regarding equaling the number here.

5.52 is easy. Direct Fire ordnance sinks a boat in the water eliminates it otherwise too.

5.53 shows that a beached boat can be considered sunk. (Second sentence)

5.531 finally tells you what happens to passengers in a sunk boat that is beached.

Elegant? Like a pig in silk pajamas. But there you have it.

Now, what type of shot was fired at the beached boat? Area/IFT or direct ordinance. If the former, passengers are CR'ed but the boat survives. The latter, the boat is gone and see 5.531 for the passengers. All SW/Guns are gone per last sentence of 5.52.

Hope that helps.
Carl
 

Honosbinda

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Elegant? Like a pig in silk pajamas. But there you have it.

Now, what type of shot was fired at the beached boat? Area/IFT or direct ordinance. If the former, passengers are CR'ed but the boat survives. The latter, the boat is gone and see 5.531 for the passengers. All SW/Guns are gone per last sentence of 5.52.
It seemed clear to me that Mike was asking about an IFT result; my answer above already addressed the matter of CR when the star result is rolled and how an assault boat is (incorrectly, imo) immune to CR.

It's true that if the described 'shot' was direct ordnance on the ITT or VTT, the boat would have been destroyed if hit. In which case, there is no need to roll on the IFT, since the boat is sunk, whether on-shore or not. Another clue that the OP's question wasn't about ordnance.

Your comprehensive answer is definitely helpful, and it points to the fact that gameplay could readily benefit from an E5.5 Boat Destruction Table (BDT) on the Chapter C or E divider. Instead, we are annoyingly deciphering the convoluted jumble of E5 to figure this out. And we've put up with it because boats are rarely used in gameplay.

A BDT could have been put together for Rising Sun, since that module did come with a LC Destruction Table embedded in the rules. That would have been logical. Boats could have easily been added to this chart.

The new CGD module would also have been an apt product to include a BDC in the body of the Dinant CG rules, given the heavy use of many boats (including the new ferries). Perhaps a Bridge/Pontoon Bridge destruction table could also be useful here to condense all of these effects in an easy to use reference rather than skipping around through chapters B, E and DN.
 

Carln0130

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It seemed clear to me that Mike was asking about an IFT result; my answer above already addressed the matter of CR when the star result is rolled and how an assault boat is (incorrectly, imo) immune to CR.

It's true that if the described 'shot' was direct ordnance on the ITT or VTT, the boat would have been destroyed if hit. In which case, there is no need to roll on the IFT, since the boat is sunk, whether on-shore or not. Another clue that the OP's question wasn't about ordnance.

Your comprehensive answer is definitely helpful, and it points to the fact that gameplay could readily benefit from an E5.5 Boat Destruction Table (BDT) on the Chapter C or E divider. Instead, we are annoyingly deciphering the convoluted jumble of E5 to figure this out. And we've put up with it because boats are rarely used in gameplay.

A BDT could have been put together for Rising Sun, since that module did come with a LC Destruction Table embedded in the rules. That would have been logical. Boats could have easily been added to this chart.

The new CGD module would also have been an apt product to include a BDC in the body of the Dinant CG rules, given the heavy use of many boats (including the new ferries). Perhaps a Bridge/Pontoon Bridge destruction table could also be useful here to condense all of these effects in an easy to use reference rather than skipping around through chapters B, E and DN.
Not being in on the Chapter E rewrite, which is by all accounts needed, I do not know if such a thing is planned.
 

Honosbinda

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Not being in on the Chapter E rewrite, which is by all accounts needed, I do not know if such a thing is planned.
First, the chapter E re-write itself would have to be planned. Then, it would have to be executed.

I know of no such project and there is certainly no mention of it on the MMP official production schedule from January 26, 2020 on their news page. Which is the latest official information available (I don't include MMP banter on Facebook and other social media as official, ymmv).

Anyway, nothing to stop the ASL public from coming up with the chart without help from MMP officials. I'll probably do it when I start playing the CG, if nothing else has popped up from another.
 

antony.marsh

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First, the chapter E re-write itself would have to be planned. Then, it would have to be executed.

I know of no such project and there is certainly no mention of it on the MMP official production schedule from January 26, 2020 on their news page. Which is the latest official information available (I don't include MMP banter on Facebook and other social media as official, ymmv).

Anyway, nothing to stop the ASL public from coming up with the chart without help from MMP officials. I'll probably do it when I start playing the CG, if nothing else has popped up from another.
Totally agree about the lack of clarity. Good fun to use boats, opens up more historical possibilities. I do notice that there are articles on boat rules in the ASLJournal 9 and CHit Vol5 N1. However both lack depth. Just need more examples really. Cheers
 

Honosbinda

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Totally agree about the lack of clarity. Good fun to use boats, opens up more historical possibilities. I do notice that there are articles on boat rules in the ASLJournal 9 and CHit Vol5 N1. However both lack depth. Just need more examples really. Cheers
Yeah agree on the fun! I am supposed to try the gunboat rules ( LFT -- St Nazaire) with a guy a meet on and off -- soon I hope. Looking at the scenarios, the gunboats zip around a lot. Should be interesting but not sure how well they will play out -- we'll see!
 

Carln0130

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First, the chapter E re-write itself would have to be planned. Then, it would have to be executed.

I know of no such project and there is certainly no mention of it on the MMP official production schedule from January 26, 2020 on their news page. Which is the latest official information available (I don't include MMP banter on Facebook and other social media as official, ymmv).

Anyway, nothing to stop the ASL public from coming up with the chart without help from MMP officials. I'll probably do it when I start playing the CG, if nothing else has popped up from another.
Just because you don't know of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Pete Shelling was certainly party to it at one point and mentioned it. Now whether it has permanently gone the way of the dodo is another matter.
 

Carln0130

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Yeah agree on the fun! I am supposed to try the gunboat rules ( LFT -- St Nazaire) with a guy a meet on and off -- soon I hope. Looking at the scenarios, the gunboats zip around a lot. Should be interesting but not sure how well they will play out -- we'll see!
Tried the PT109 scenario once. It was enjoyable.
 

antony.marsh

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Yeah agree on the fun! I am supposed to try the gunboat rules ( LFT -- St Nazaire) with a guy a meet on and off -- soon I hope. Looking at the scenarios, the gunboats zip around a lot. Should be interesting but not sure how well they will play out -- we'll see!
Good luck with that! You never know it may be more straightforward-ha ha. I wonder if there are more examples somewhere?
 

Honosbinda

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Just because you don't know of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Pete Shelling was certainly party to it at one point and mentioned it. Now whether it has permanently gone the way of the dodo is another matter.
Obviously. Just as I don't know dark matter exists, even if a lot of people mention it!

But I'd rather have the vaporware eASLRB that's been mentioned and promised a heckuva lot more than times than the Chapter E rewrite. Ideally neither have gone the way of the dodo.
 

Honosbinda

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Good luck with that! You never know it may be more straightforward-ha ha. I wonder if there are more examples somewhere?
I don't know. Maybe I'll work on that player aid for these boats, ferries, pontoon bridges, footbridges so I don't have to memorize rules from three diverse chapters.

It could be someone did something already. Desperation Morale might be a good place to look for play aids and examples on boats.
 

Carln0130

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I don't know. Maybe I'll work on that player aid for these boats, ferries, pontoon bridges, footbridges so I don't have to memorize rules from three diverse chapters.

It could be someone did something already. Desperation Morale might be a good place to look for play aids and examples on boats.
There you go. If you need some proofing once done, feel free to let me know. Would be happy to assist.
 

Nearmiss

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And CC everything to me, please. Boat rules have me paddling upstream.
 

Adrian_QLD

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Rich Spilky play aids available on Texas ASL downloads have a couple of boat play aids Table 24a and b.
if this would be helpful
 

Honosbinda

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Rich Spilky play aids available on Texas ASL downloads have a couple of boat play aids Table 24a and b.
if this would be helpful
Good catch, I'd forgotten about these. I checked out table 24b and it covers boat destruction. Not sure if his stuff was vetted back in the day -- I'll review it for accuracy. There's a lot of stuff on their downloads pages there
 
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