Board 50 - hexes K1 and AA10: Stream or Open Ground?

Jon

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
1,565
Reaction score
136
Location
Albany, Australia
Country
llAustralia
Hi

Hexes 50K1 and 50AA10. Stream or Open Ground?
20975

20976
I say that as B20.1 is written, they are Open Ground hexes. Opinions please as scenario setup may depend on it :)

Cheers
Jon
 

Tuomo

Keeper of the Funk
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
4,654
Reaction score
5,540
Location
Rock Bottom
Country
llUnited States
You should confirm with your opponent, for sure.

Technically, I think the rules want the artwork to pass entirely through the hex and into the next hex in order for it to be a Stream. When the VASL board got drawn, the Map Elf may have omitted that by accident or ignorance. Or the real hardcopy board itself may have done so, for the same reasons.

As said Map Elf for many boards (can't recall if I did bd50), I personally believe the necessity for the artwork to cross over into the next hex is silly, and, for example, the stream ends as shown in your post are obviously streams. This attitude is objectionable to some, highly-so for at least one member of gamesquad. To the extent that it causes unnecessary difficulties for the community, I regret that, and think it'd be a good idea to change the boards so that they're not confusing. I'd like it better if common sense prevailed, but that's not ASL :)
 
Last edited:

lightspeed

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
485
Reaction score
440
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
You should confirm with your opponent, for sure.

Technically, I think the rules want the artwork to pass entirely through the hex and into the next hex in order for it to be a Stream. When the VASL board got drawn, the Map Elf may have omitted that by accident or ignorance. Or the real hardcopy board itself may have done so, for the same reasons.

As said Map Elf for many boards (can't recall if I did bd50), I personally believe the necessity for the artwork to cross over into the next hex is silly, and, for example, the stream ends as shown in your post are obviously streams. This attitude is objectionable to some, highly-so for at least one member of gamesquad. To the extent that it causes unnecessary difficulties for the community, I regret that, and think it'd be a good idea to change the boards so that they're not confusing. I'd like it better if common sense prevailed, but that's not ASL :)
Couldn’t agree more. I would hope that, in the absence of common sense, designers would put in an SSR to avoid confusion.

indy
 

Doug Leslie

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,632
Reaction score
1,572
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
The rules seem pretty clear that a stream has to cross two hexsides in order to be considered as such.

20.1 A stream is a gully containing a small rivulet. A hex such as 13P4 containing a thin meandering blue line enclosed in a layered white, brown, and dark green background which extends through two hexsides of the hex is a stream hex. 13G4 and I6 are not stream hexes because the stream symbol crosses only one hexside therein. Non-stream remnants such as those in 22J0 and X10 do not block or impede Bypass movement of the J0-K1 hexside.


20977

You could debate 50AA10 but 50K1 looks pretty close to the examples given in B20.1. I think that you have to apply the rule as written unless both players agree otherwise.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,637
Reaction score
5,617
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
An additional problem arises when a stream is dry : it is considered as a gully... and gully depictions don't follow the same rules as streams. The "dead-end" hexes suddenly become Depressions...
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,399
Reaction score
1,757
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
We start with the primary clause: B20.1: "A stream is a gully." If we start with the premise that G4 is a gully, the question is whether it is also a stream. The blue does not cross two hexsides. G4 is not a stream. Is it a gully?

B19.1: "Unlike a stream (even if dry), the gully symbol need only appear in a hex for it to be considered a gully hex."

If the stream is dry, [...] it is considered a gully for all purposes. B20.41. G4 was never a stream. The fact that the stream is dry does not change the fact that G4 was never a stream. It can't change to a gully. It is either a gully before or never a gully/stream.

I agree with Tuomo, Lightspeed, and Doug. It is silly that G4 is not a stream. But we play by the rules as written. G4 or H1 and AA10 in the original example are either streams or gullies. They are not level 0 woods or level 0 OG. I would play them as gullies if the "
blue line enclosed in a layered white, brown, and dark green background which [does not extend] through two hexsides of the hex.

I did search B20 in the PS. I did not find anything.
 

Tuomo

Keeper of the Funk
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
4,654
Reaction score
5,540
Location
Rock Bottom
Country
llUnited States
Given that Larry is a capital-L Lawyer, I'd suggest everyone just go with his lead, unless they want to find themselves giving up the Double Secret Balance or something.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,448
Reaction score
3,392
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I raised this point with regard to certain of the earlier boards and was told that these were stream hexes and we did not need errata on that point. Personally, I think this is wrong but without confirming it with my opponent I would play them as stream hexes (even though they are not!:))

Additionally, if the blue colour covers the centre dotand they are not stream hexes then they are water obstacles instead.
21.1 A Water Obstacle is a body of water large enough to stop normal movement of men and vehicles, which cannot enter without special assistance. Any non-stream hex whose center dot is emplaced in a blue background is a Water Obstacle hex.
 

Doug Leslie

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,632
Reaction score
1,572
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I raised this point with regard to certain of the earlier boards and was told that these were stream hexes and we did not need errata on that point. Personally, I think this is wrong but without confirming it with my opponent I would play them as stream hexes (even though they are not!:))

Additionally, if the blue colour covers the centre dotand they are not stream hexes then they are water obstacles instead.
21.1 A Water Obstacle is a body of water large enough to stop normal movement of men and vehicles, which cannot enter without special assistance. Any non-stream hex whose center dot is emplaced in a blue background is a Water Obstacle hex.
Would it not have to fall into one of the four categories of water obstacle ie canal, river, pond or lake/ocean? I don't think that a "non-stream end hex" would qualify under the definitions of any of those.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,448
Reaction score
3,392
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Would it not have to fall into one of the four categories of water obstacle ie canal, river, pond or lake/ocean? I don't think that a "non-stream end hex" would qualify under the definitions of any of those.
That's what I thpought but if you read the definition of "water obstacle" it's clear that this is what it is, if it's not a stream. I think it defaults to a river as they are "usually of multihex width...." This does not exclude a single hex river!
 

Doug Leslie

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,632
Reaction score
1,572
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
That's what I thpought but if you read the definition of "water obstacle" it's clear that this is what it is, if it's not a stream. I think it defaults to a river as they are "usually of multihex width...." This does not exclude a single hex river!
21.12 RIVER: A river is a larger waterway usually of multi-hex width, which extends in a continuous flow of water hexes off the board end.

I think that the highlighted part excludes it from being a river. B21.1 clarifies the following situation.

20985

Clearly this body of water is a pond, parts of which extend into R8, R9, and S9 . Only S10 is a pond hex however, based on 21.1. The other hexes can be entered by land units but a hexside covered by a water obstacle cannot be bypassed.
 
Last edited:

Tuomo

Keeper of the Funk
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
4,654
Reaction score
5,540
Location
Rock Bottom
Country
llUnited States
Clearly this body of water is a pond...
I agree, but if you're going to play the "strict wording of the rules" game with terrain, then you can't say this is a Pond, because B21.13 doesn't define what a Pond looks like, just how it's played. Just as B23.1 says that Building hexes contain rectangles - which is exactly why 64K7 resulted in a question when it came out, because it didn't have a rectangle:

20986

And if we REALLY wanna go there, B20.1 says that Streams cross two hexsides - not three. So one could argue that a Y-junction of stream-ish things isn't actually a Stream hex. Ain't we having fun?

The EX in B.1 says, "Common sense must prevail". IMO, that's why 50K1 and AA10, as drawn in the VASL examples at the top of this thread, should be played as Stream hexes. But I recognize that parsing the ASLRB is a big part of what we do, and "Common sense" doesn't always hold. Shrug.
 

Tuomo

Keeper of the Funk
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
4,654
Reaction score
5,540
Location
Rock Bottom
Country
llUnited States
Perhaps, some day, could the boards with those ambiguous "dead-ends" be corrected to avoid any confusion?
If you're talking about VASL, yep, I will do that, if someone with the hardcopy boards will send me screen shots of the stream ends. Because if the stream ends don't cross two hexsides on the hardcopy boards, I'm not gonna make the VASL boards do it.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,637
Reaction score
5,617
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
It is quite normal that some rules details are overlooked by the board artists.
All we can hope, is that in the new ones, the ambiguities won't be repeated.
Some errata could also be introduced to avoid having to re-draw the stream dead-ends.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,637
Reaction score
5,617
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
If you're talking about VASL, yep, I will do that, if someone with the hardcopy boards will send me screen shots of the stream ends. Because if the stream ends don't cross two hexsides on the hardcopy boards, I'm not gonna make the VASL boards do it.
I didn't check, but I seem to remember that some physical boards already have those ambiguous stream dead-ends.
 

Doug Leslie

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,632
Reaction score
1,572
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I agree, but if you're going to play the "strict wording of the rules" game with terrain, then you can't say this is a Pond, because B21.13 doesn't define what a Pond looks like, just how it's played. Just as B23.1 says that Building hexes contain rectangles - which is exactly why 64K7 resulted in a question when it came out, because it didn't have a rectangle:

View attachment 20986

And if we REALLY wanna go there, B20.1 says that Streams cross two hexsides - not three. So one could argue that a Y-junction of stream-ish things isn't actually a Stream hex. Ain't we having fun?

The EX in B.1 says, "Common sense must prevail". IMO, that's why 50K1 and AA10, as drawn in the VASL examples at the top of this thread, should be played as Stream hexes. But I recognize that parsing the ASLRB is a big part of what we do, and "Common sense" doesn't always hold. Shrug.
I think that the definition of a pond is clear enough in 21.13.

21.13 POND: A pond for game purposes is essentially a land-locked river, lacking the natural flow patterns of a river because it is surrounded by land on all sides. 7CC9 and 17N7 are examples of a pond hex.

I would suggest that the rivulets being discussed fall under the first sentence of B.1

B.1 SYMBOLOGY: For aesthetic purposes, terrain symbology may extend marginally out of a hex into an adjacent hex of another type, but most hexes are dominated by one specific terrain type and are governed by the rules for that specific terrain type.

I guess that some extensions are less marginal than others!
 

Kijug

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
422
Reaction score
391
Location
Texas
First name
Matt
Country
llUnited States
An additional problem arises when a stream is dry : it is considered as a gully... and gully depictions don't follow the same rules as streams. The "dead-end" hexes suddenly become Depressions...
I disagree. K1 and AA10 are not stream hexes and due to the artwork not extending through two hexsides (as discussed above). However, since the artwork contains blue, I'd argue they are not drawn to indicate gullies, either, ref. B19.1:

B19.1 ...containing a thin, meandering black line enclosed in a light brown background which, in turn, is enclosed in a dark green background is a gully.

So K1 and AA10 are not streams by rule (crosses two hexsides) and are not gullies by rule (do not meet the "art rules")--simply open ground.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,637
Reaction score
5,617
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I disagree. K1 and AA10 are not stream hexes and due to the artwork not extending through two hexsides (as discussed above). However, since the artwork contains blue, I'd argue they are not drawn to indicate gullies, either, ref. B19.1:

B19.1 ...containing a thin, meandering black line enclosed in a light brown background which, in turn, is enclosed in a dark green background is a gully.

So K1 and AA10 are not streams by rule (crosses two hexsides) and are not gullies by rule (do not meet the "art rules")--simply open ground.
Who said that they are "drawn to indicate gullies"?
I didn't.
I simply said that, when a Stream is Dry, it is considered a Gully.
And Gully depiction rules work differently from Streams.

Please see the rule B20.41.
B20.41 DRY: If a stream is dry, it does not exist; rather, it is considered a gully for all purposes, and all marsh hexes on the same board are considered mudflats.
 

Robert Fabbro

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
136
Reaction score
75
Location
Coquitlam BC
Country
llCanada
Hopefully some will find the following useful, or at least food for further discussion.

I had a look at the first 80 starter kit style maps. I did not look at any double-wide boards, original hardback boards, deluxe, or TPP boards.

Using the literal interpretation of B20.1, my non-scientific conclusions follow:

Board 13 - I had no problem determining what the stream end hexes are.
Board 22 - K1 is questionable, but I would argue W10 has just enough of the stream art going to a second hexside to declare it a stream hex.
Board 32 - No problem determining stream end hexes.
Board 34 - Ditto.
Board 36 - K10 is questionable, and Q5 has 3 hexsides, putting it in conflict with a pedantic reading of B20.1. Otherwise OK.
Board 40 - No problem.
Board 47 - Yikes. All end hexes are questionable. Also AA6 and G7 have 3 hexsides.
Board 50 - Questionable (as per the OP).
Board 66 - No problem.
Board 72 - No problem. The stream art is really well done on this map, following the dictates of B20.1, and making it very apparent (to me) what was intended as a stream hex and where said stream ended.
Board 76 - Ditto as board 72, but AA8 has 3 hexsides.

YMMV
 
Last edited:
Top