Beyond Valor pricing

Gunner Scott

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Hi-


Retail Price: $95.00Pre-Order Price: $71.25

71 bucks for unmounted maps, a cheaply made box, JUST the German Russian OB and some scenarios? aint that bit much? And once BV hits the streets, a whopping 95 bucks for the same. Why not include RB? That I think would justify such a price. Heck, on eBay, you can pick up a 1st edition BV for less then 70 buck usually.

It just seems like the light beer commerciels, less is better?

Is there anyway to lower the prices?

Scott
 

Larry

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I apologize for those that have blocked Scott's posts. I have not.

What form of entertainment has gone down in price? The price of entertainment has simply gone up. The fact of the matter is that a substantial portion of the market will part with $95 for a BV third edition.

Break it down: a scenario pack of 10 scenarios is worth $15 to $20. The Buckeye Pack (which is marvelous) sells for $17.50 and contains only 10 scenarios. People are paying $40 to $80 annuals, over $100 for J2 I would guess principally for the scenarios. If you don't have the OOP scenarios, BV's 20 OOP scenarios are worth at least $30. MMP sells unmounted boards for $5 each. BV3 has 10 boards that are mounted in the alternative fashion. That makes $50. Counter sheets are $8 each and BV3 has 13 of them; that equates to $104. Throw in a dollar for the box and that brings us to $190. Selling BV3 for $95 retail ... sounds real good.

Problem for you Scott is personal. If MMP packages OOP scenarios in with BV3 and other reprints in the future, your current collection is devalued. A player can get 20 scenarios and a gross of counters for the price of 2 modest ebay wins for Annuals. If MMP makes a pile of money, and I hope it does, it can turn a profit for its investors and use other moneys for capital investment. This is how businesses run Scott, for a profit.
 

Tycho

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I actually am curious how everyone continues to afford this hobby. I'm pretty average - wife, 2 kids, various pets, house, etc. In the past ASL was expensive, but I still bought all of it. Now, I have to pick and choose - Aoo or OtO? Schwerpunckt or the Journal? And I think long and hard before I even part with that kind of money.
So is it that the prices took a sudden jump, or there is more quality stuff being produced, or what? Maybe I'm just to fiscally conservative :eek:
 

Doughboy

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Larry said:
I apologize for those that have blocked Scott's posts. I have not.

What form of entertainment has gone down in price? The price of entertainment has simply gone up. The fact of the matter is that a substantial portion of the market will part with $95 for a BV third edition.

Break it down: a scenario pack of 10 scenarios is worth $15 to $20. The Buckeye Pack (which is marvelous) sells for $17.50 and contains only 10 scenarios. People are paying $40 to $80 annuals, over $100 for J2 I would guess principally for the scenarios. If you don't have the OOP scenarios, BV's 20 OOP scenarios are worth at least $30. MMP sells unmounted boards for $5 each. BV3 has 10 boards that are mounted in the alternative fashion. That makes $50. Counter sheets are $8 each and BV3 has 13 of them; that equates to $104. Throw in a dollar for the box and that brings us to $190. Selling BV3 for $95 retail ... sounds real good.

Problem for you Scott is personal. If MMP packages OOP scenarios in with BV3 and other reprints in the future, your current collection is devalued. A player can get 20 scenarios and a gross of counters for the price of 2 modest ebay wins for Annuals. If MMP makes a pile of money, and I hope it does, it can turn a profit for its investors and use other moneys for capital investment. This is how businesses run Scott, for a profit.
Hi Larry,

with respects, though at first I was willing to agree with you on your points, believe that the examples you cited seemed to be flawed. Most of the pricing that you reference are for OOP items that have become highly inflated as a consequence of supply and demand. Now given that the pricing for comparable MMP large core products such as Gung Ho and Yanks were and remains $60 to $65 dollars, then the the new pricing does seem high.

Granted the high cost of printing and prepress work is enormously expensive and could only be offset if the volumes (and customer base) was there to justify the higher print runs. I suppose what it comes down to is that the pricing is not inflated due to reduced value for money (inflation) rather, the reality of the business to commit to smaller print runs to address a shrinking customer base thereby losing out on economies of scale.

If I recall (please feel free to correct me), the last time Beyond Valor was available it was about $70 - $75 on the MMP so granted the pricing has gone up substantially. But, to be fair the kit is now totally self contained equiped with not just four maps but ten maps and 20 scenarios! Furthermore, with six additional maps at a nominal cost of $4 each (not $12 for hard mounts) the cost should logically go up by $24 which when added on top of the previous price of $70 is not bad deal.

Lastly, I do agree that such a big ticket price is pretty much a door slammer for newbies on top of the requirement for the rulebook. Affordability, is one of the key issues why new blood would otherwise shy away from entering into the hobby. To be honest the only way this could be anymore affordable for newbies is to look at dtp options. Perhaps this is the way to go by providing an "alternative" lower cost product to newbies, the rule book if printed in b/w on lower cost materials w/o the fancy binder could be dramatically cheaper to the point of including it in the kit. I am not sure how the core module can be cheapen through dtp without really compromising the quality though but, then again dtp is really about replacing hard counters and components with paper. :rolleyes:
 

Doughboy

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Tycho said:
I actually am curious how everyone continues to afford this hobby. I'm pretty average - wife, 2 kids, various pets, house, etc. In the past ASL was expensive, but I still bought all of it. Now, I have to pick and choose - Aoo or OtO? Schwerpunckt or the Journal? And I think long and hard before I even part with that kind of money.
So is it that the prices took a sudden jump, or there is more quality stuff being produced, or what? Maybe I'm just to fiscally conservative :eek:
While to the pricing for people who got into this game over the last several years has been scary, consider that for most of us gronards who brought into this hobby in the beginning. In our experiene 15 years ago our biggest initial investment was the rulebook as Beyond Valor. At the time the rulebook was about $35 and the game was $40, a massive drop of cash at that time. I had to think twice about how insane I was then, but given how much I loved SL and totally detested how GI warped the game at that point, a standardized and improved system was definitely in order (thank God the marketing was proven correct!)

Fortunately, the Hill was very slow in producing follow-up kits and it worked out to about one module for every two years (very affordable). Before the Hill died about five years back most fans have more or less given up on seeing any more development of the so called DB and AOO. To be fair a lot of us were still using the vehicles (an easy conversion) from Cresendo of Doom as well already have the infantry counters from Partisan and the Last Hurrah.

I do sympathese that the entry cost though is hideous, but the reality is that the heyday of wargaming which peaked in the late 70s and early 80s are gone and therefore the customer base is simply not out there. As a consquence print runs are small and very expensive; and unless people are willing to magically produce triple the customer base * overnight or settle for Cheapass Games DTP style products then the entry cost will reflect this. On the flip side though the cost of golf bags and members totally blows away the cost of these games as mere triffles, you just have to justify the cost of the hobby in your own terms :cheeky:

* Hey Keith and Brian - perhaps MMP has an real opportunity here to aggressively market the game for training to the Marines and the Army as the new initiative in training really emphasizes Wargaming - see the latest issue of the Marine Gazette as an example!
Big profit and at the same time supporting the boys in the field! Semper FI! ;)

Nothing beats the a big Government Contract order :p
 
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zgrose

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Doughboy said:
Lastly, I do agree that such a big ticket price is pretty much a door slammer for newbies on top of the requirement for the rulebook. Affordability, is one of the key issues why new blood would otherwise shy away from entering into the hobby.
I'm not sure this is true. Other wargames cost $40-50 and allow you to play a single scenario or two. If you simply compared the playable options of the ASLRB + BV you get far more game per dollar. Complexity, perceived or otherwise, is the achilles heel of ASL. Once overcome, the value of the modules become readily apparent.
 

da priest

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Well, when considering pricing, I just look at another niche hobby I was in. Skiing used to cost $7.50 for an all day lift ticket. Tickets are now in excess of $100. With the wife and I skiing it would cost over a $400 for a weekend now vs $30 years ago. Used to go every other weekend, haven't gone in years...8xs per year for $240 vs. over $3,200 now... and I didn't even mention airfare, hotel, the equipment or clothes...:surprise:

Other niche hobbies are the same, main-stream hobbies like golf are similar, but not as bad.

ASL is a good deal at retail, even better at pre-pub. prices.:bounce:

As for responding to a gadfly post, no problem as long as you don't quote or respond to the bile. Responding to the underlying gist of the message(which is what sucks you in to read the post) is fine.:devil:

We then go onto a reasonable discussion of reasonable issues, and frustrate the trolling effort...job well done gents..:smoke:

Just remember, like over half the Forum:D , you can choose to "ignore" the gadfly, by going to his public profile and clicking "ignore"(right hand side of screen near top).:laugh:
 
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da priest

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Tycho said:
I actually am curious how everyone continues to afford this hobby. ...
Well sorta depends on what you consider the "Hobby". The ASLRB and BV are all you really need to play. The rest are add-ons and "collectibles".:cheeky:

$200 or less for years and years of hobby time...seems alrite.:bandit: Remember your buddies can play with you ftf using their gear, you can play on-line using VASL...the work arounds go on and on.
 

Bryan Holtby

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I think most hobbies are expensive to get into. Here are a few costs:

Golf: 4-500$ for set of average clubs and another 40+ for a putter
40+ for golf shoes
70+ each time you go out

end result....bloody expensive and costs about 20$ an hour to play. So the costs never end

Modeling....planes, tanks, ships....whatever.

100$ for an airbrush
20-200$ per model
80$ in various tools

end result...not as expensive as golf, but a very anti social hobby, and as above, the costs never end.

ASL:

100$ for BV
100$ for v2 rulebook
and so on.....

play time is free, few other hobbies are that way...although it may cost you various 'freebies' with your wife.....but thats no different than any other hobby. The more you play, the less your $ per hour of enjoyment is. Bonus part is that once you have paid for your stuff, it doesnt cost you any more to play. Unless you gotta travel.

BV is the most expensive module in the system and it should be. The Germans have more 'stuff' than any other nationality save the Americans....and the Yanks come in 2 modules. The Russians are most likely 3rd on the 'stuff list', so it makes sense that BV is the most expensive.

I guess the best way to keep the cost of BV down would be to cut the Germans in half and put out another German module....but imagine the b$t%h*n# then :laugh:
 

Johnny Canuck

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ASL also has a much longer replayability and resaleability than computer games as well.

How many computer games from the early 90's are worth any $$$, or are even playable by today's standards?
 

Doughboy

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Johnny Canuck said:
ASL also has a much longer replayability and resaleability than computer games as well.

How many computer games from the early 90's are worth any $$$, or are even playable by today's standards?
Man you got that right, my old computer games are useless gathing dust and would not load into XP as those were circa Win 3.1 :eek:
Nice thing about the rules, its STABLE!
 

Cabin4clw

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Hi,

Yes to someone like me the cost is high. With a very limited budget that is a lot of money. Sure when it first came out I bought it all. But I was single not dating and really enjoyed wargames. Now that I'm married with a 10 year old daughter and my wife making a career change and not working yet I can't justify it.

Would I like to get back involved like that-Sure.

Just my .02

Joe
 

Cabin4clw

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This whole thing about the price was why I wondered if anyone has any counters to sell. Over the years I bought the maps, scenarios and counters which is why I just need the counters but I will not buy the whole module because I don't need it.

Joe
 

Chas Argent

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Keep your eyes peeled on Ebay; I have, on several occasions, seen people selling just baggies full of counters, usually by nationality, and the prices have been reasonable.
 

Gunner Scott

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Hi-

Larry, your missing the point, I could care less if my collection is devalued or not, yes I like to sell my extra's on eBay but the point is this: is BV3 actually worth the price to a newbie, more so for the old guard?

I say no, I also say that if published, I think 1st edition modules will be popular on eBay Why? B/C you get the Finn's, four mounted maps (the other mounted maps can easily be had except 42 and 43) German Russian ob and a sturdy box as well as 10 scenarios. Granted this is not self contained but it will not feel like you got a cheaply made product either.

Worse, we as the old guard will need new components as our older ones get worn out, why should I buy BV3 when I can go on eBay pick up a nice 1st edition module for far less?

I think MMP needs rethink it's stratagy here and include RB as well a set of new scenarios. Then the price they are asking becomes more belivable.

Scott

Larry said:
I apologize for those that have blocked Scott's posts. I have not.

What form of entertainment has gone down in price? The price of entertainment has simply gone up. The fact of the matter is that a substantial portion of the market will part with $95 for a BV third edition.

Break it down: a scenario pack of 10 scenarios is worth $15 to $20. The Buckeye Pack (which is marvelous) sells for $17.50 and contains only 10 scenarios. People are paying $40 to $80 annuals, over $100 for J2 I would guess principally for the scenarios. If you don't have the OOP scenarios, BV's 20 OOP scenarios are worth at least $30. MMP sells unmounted boards for $5 each. BV3 has 10 boards that are mounted in the alternative fashion. That makes $50. Counter sheets are $8 each and BV3 has 13 of them; that equates to $104. Throw in a dollar for the box and that brings us to $190. Selling BV3 for $95 retail ... sounds real good.

Problem for you Scott is personal. If MMP packages OOP scenarios in with BV3 and other reprints in the future, your current collection is devalued. A player can get 20 scenarios and a gross of counters for the price of 2 modest ebay wins for Annuals. If MMP makes a pile of money, and I hope it does, it can turn a profit for its investors and use other moneys for capital investment. This is how businesses run Scott, for a profit.
 

Reepicheep

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In reply to the previous poster (whom some forumites might not have been able to read), there are going to be 20 scenarios in BV not the 10 you mentioned. And all are going to be from out of print sources.

And if you're needing replacement counters, by all means go on eBay and pick up the 1st edition BV... there's no need to buy the latest one if all you want are some counters.
 

amuller

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hi

Hello all, Im a usually lurker here but felt a need to respond here -- please be kind. Scott, I believe has presented a reasonably claim and deserves a reasonable response not just a reaction of "TROLL". The question is whether MMP's products, specifically BV3 are reasonably price-- NOT whether ASL is cheap compared to other hobby. Which BTW I believe it is.

So is $71 too much?? Actually I think its CHEAP. Yes cheap. for that price you get 10 maps, 13countersheets, 20 scenerios and 4 dice -- not bad. Again, comparing it to other hobbies I think is unfair. comparing it to other wargames is not. For instance Onlslught to oRsha -- a fine product -- had 180 counters 1 histortical map 24 scenerios and some other goodies for $54 dollars. CH's Guerra civil war had 2 maps 736 counters and 12 scenrios for $50. While both had many extras, they cost but $20 less and didn't come with nearly as much material. Did they? The only product that comes close seems to be ADG's World in Falmes which has 1400 counters 5 maps and obviously all rules and charts for the game. Its price is $80.

I dunno maybe there are games that hhave the content of BV out there that come in cheaper. I don't see em. But maybe I was just suckered by a troll.

AJ
 
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