Beyond Valor pricing

Dr Zaius

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Does anyone know how much it costs to print the HASL maps compared to the mounted maps?
 

da priest

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Don Maddox said:
Does anyone know how much it costs to print the HASL maps compared to the mounted maps?
Mostly WAG, but 1 mounted probably costs the same as a HASL. So 4-6 of new style maps would be the same.:bandit:
 

ChrisBuehler

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I thought I might weigh in on this since I have a copy on pre-order from MMP. When you compare the price of BV3 (10 map boards, 20 scenarios, 13 counter sheets) with that of SK#1 (2 map boards, 6 scenarios, 1 counter sheet, very brief rulebook), you will find BV3 to be a bargin. Of course this did not stop me from buying SK#1 to pass the time while I wait for my pre-ordered ASLRB and BV3.

I will say that I would have preferred the previous style of mounted map boards, but I may pick those up on eBay or elsewhere.

Chris
 

Gunner Scott

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hi ya-

Well judging from the amount of pre-orders, only 279, I dont think a whole hell of a lot of people care for this new version. This is an observation because looking back at FKaC, it was close to 1200 pre-orders by the time it went to print. Of course it did sit in pre-order limbo for over a year also.


Scott
 

amuller

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pre-order

yeah I can't imgaine high pre-sales on BV3. Not because it isn't worth it, but becuase there is little new material. FKaC offered up an updated british OOB. I believe BV contains the same OOB as the second edition. Further the maps have all seen the light of day and I believe the scenerios will all be reprints. Thus there is little in it for experienced gamers. I think the point of BV3 is, as you yourself have argued, is to have the the basic German and Russian forces available to new players. Thus I would not expect high pre-orders on BV3.

Aj
 

Chas Argent

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It only been on the preorder list for a little over two months. And remember, store orders are only counted two-for-one.

By the time it goes to print I bet there will be at least as many orders as there were for FKaC.
 

Gunner Scott

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Hi

In a twisted sort of way, thats kinda sad IE a needed component of the system might not see the light of day for another year possibly.



Scott

Chas Argent said:
It only been on the preorder list for a little over two months. And remember, store orders are only counted two-for-one.

By the time it goes to print I bet there will be at least as many orders as there were for FKaC.
 

David Reinking

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Chas Argent said:
It only been on the preorder list for a little over two months. And remember, store orders are only counted two-for-one.

By the time it goes to print I bet there will be at least as many orders as there were for FKaC.
I am not sure that that will be the case. The intent of BV3, as a fully self-contained game, would appear to be a bridge to bring the ASLSK player right into ASL. I do not believe that MMP can/should wait until there are 1200 pre-orders before sending it off for printing. I would hazard a guess that both the Rulebook and BV3 should be available by March 2005-- with AOO printed BEFORE that (fingers crossed).
 

Chas Argent

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I don't think 1,200 orders has been a stated goal, unless I've missed that somewhere. I think it will be printed, regardless of order total, as soon as it's possible to do so.
 

da priest

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Chas Argent said:
I don't think 1,200 orders has been a stated goal, unless I've missed that somewhere. I think it will be printed, regardless of order total, as soon as it's possible to do so.
The 1,200 number is a number from someone's fevered imagination, not factual at all. Never mentioned anywhere.

The ASLRB and BV inventory will be financed by the sale of AoO and some of those Gamers games. They will never reach a high enuf number pre-order to provide the hoped for needed future supply.

The BV issue we should "guess" at is "How many should they print?" Then keep a list of the guesses and when they run out again, we know who to blame.:devil:
 

paulkenny

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But they should definitely attempt to plan to have in available for the extended future! Not run out in 1 year.
 

da priest

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paulkenny said:
But they should definitely attempt to plan to have in available for the extended future! Not run out in 1 year.
Come on paul, not how you play the game...:smoke:

Numbers man, taking into account:

1. printing costs
2. inventory costs
3. need to publish other modules
4. anticipated demand:devil:

You beefed about "running out" now give us the numbers.:cheeky:
 

Gunner Scott

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Oh please give me a break PVT Mosher; if MMP can afford to purchase the license to more games, surely they can afford the costs to keeping ASL in stock thus avoiding feeding eBay.

Scott

PVT Ambulance Chaser said:
Come on paul, not how you play the game...:smoke:

Numbers man, taking into account:

1. printing costs
2. inventory costs
3. need to publish other modules
4. anticipated demand:devil:

You beefed about "running out" now give us the numbers.:cheeky:
 

paulkenny

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da priest said:
Come on paul, not how you play the game...:smoke:

Numbers man, taking into account:

1. printing costs
2. inventory costs
3. need to publish other modules
4. anticipated demand:devil:

You beefed about "running out" now give us the numbers.:cheeky:
Ron, look at the impact on their ASL business, they cant sell to the new customers who bought ASLSK and want to join ASL. They are forced divert effort and resources from producing new stuff to reproducing old stuff. New technology ie. Quark requires them to reinvent the wheel everytime they produce Rulebook, BV whatever.
 

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paulkenny said:
Ron, look at the impact on their ASL business, they cant sell to the new customers who bought ASLSK and want to join ASL. They are forced divert effort and resources from producing new stuff to reproducing old stuff. New technology ie. Quark requires them to reinvent the wheel everytime they produce Rulebook, BV whatever.
Hi Paul,

Ron and Scott have valid points to a very tired argument, but the reality is that MMP resources are very limited. There are way too many unknowns as the total production of BV AH-MMP sold versus potential customers. Let's assume that AH printed something in the neighborhood of 5000 ( maybe 10,000) copies and all of these copies took about a decade to sell out. Now given that when MMP took over the reigns took a cautious stance and made one print run of 1500 units and was surpised that it sold out so fast and subsequently printed another 1500 units. Then the question is how many more should they really print this time if the first original printing took so long to sell out? Challenging indeed.

If their object is to recover on investment within 2 or 3 years then perhaps print runs of 2000 is not unreasonable. Problem was that Quark updates really screwed up the original files so sending this out to the printers simply wont do. Hence, and upgrade of the Quark software and the intensely labourious process of proofing the work, not a small task given the sheer size of the rulebook! :nuts:

Perhaps my estimations are flawed and perhaps Brian or Keith can provide some hindsight there but unlike the past the ASL players today has wider scope globally. One could argue that the potential player population has more than doubled thanks in large part to the internet, VASL and so forth. But, then again these are only presumptions without educated facts. :D

Perhaps the maintainer of VASL database could provide a database on the number of players who use the system and whether there is a trend on new subscribers some conclusions can be made. Given that the ASL community is a relatively close nit group the resources of sales trends between MMP perhaps from old AH and some TPP companies could be pooled together (to the level that they are comfortable with) to draw conclusions on the potential market size. :cool:

Secondly, the aspect of marketing within this hobby has been very low key. Unlike Avalon Hill in the past, MMP does not seem to have the resouces at this time in personnel to conduct a proper marketing campaign. Is this an indication or an acknowledgement that doing so in the age of computer games a waste of time? Hardly, there are plenty of opportunities for this game to really go big time. Given that the game system is recognized as the top product to wargame small unit actions as a teaching tool the marines, navy and or course the army has been using this game for this very purpose over the last couple of decades. :rolleyes:

Also the forces are now placing far more emphasis in using wargames to teach small unit tactics, though ASL is very useful in demonstrating small unit tactics the context of WW2 is problem to the military. However, if aggressive marketing is done to meet the right people (in the military or other NATO allies) I'm sure that MMP will pull all the stops to modify the system to model modern combat for the miliatary. A large contract will a course mean that print runs in excess of 30,000 to 50,000 copies is not unreasonable. Furthermore, this will spill over to enormous cost savings benefits to us consumers as well. Finally, none of this is possible without enough market research to understand the potential demand and to leverage potential opportunities. I guess its a case of not enough time or resources :eek:
 

alanp

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Regarding the pricing of ANY of the ASL modules:

I was initially aghast at the $112 price of AoO--if I saw it in the store, I'm sure I'd have to pass. To MMP's credit, they give us all several options. I'm looking forward to receiving[some day :rolleyes: ] my copy, sans maps, for a mere $48. I believe I paid more for CoB years ago. Granted, CoB had more 'stuff', but my point is $48 is reasonable for a new ASL module.

BV for $70-90--with what it's going to contain--is a good deal.

Alan
 

Dr Zaius

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Part of the problem here isn't the actual cost, it's the "sticker shock" associated with it. Now are there people who truly cannot afford a $100 module once per year? Yes, there certainly are. But even under the best of circumstances it's difficult to market any quality product to such an audience and MMP can't shape the system around this group. Most people can afford the cost, they are simply shocked a bit by it though.

As Ron pointed out earlier, many people will blow $40 at Walmart on a couple of DVD's on an impulse buy, or they will spend $18 on a chicken dinner and not even think about it. I think almost all of us agree that ASL is a good value for the cost, we simply need to convince more potential recruits that this is so. If more people start playing ASL it means more opponents for us, more and livlier tournament events, and possibly even reduced prices on ASL components over the long run. It's a win-win for us all.

Now how do we convince people ASL is worth the expense? First of all, marketing. Advertisement is not cheap in any form, that's a given and it's just one of the evils of doing business. MMP needs to -- within the limits of their resources -- market ASL as agressively as they can. Keith is doing a lot of good in this respect by building a solid relationship with places like Consimworld and Warfare HQ. These sites can reach a lot of potential players and every little bit helps. Now that WHQ is allied with Armchair General Magazine (and I work for ACG as well), we fully expect that this will be an even bigger win-win for wargamers. Since the ACG-WHQ merger we have already seen several new recruits from the ACG side of the forum come here and ask how to get started with ASL. Marketing works. :D

Having said all of that, the point some people were making about MMP's ability to keep ASL in stock is certainly valid. What should probably happen is this: MMP should devise an internal system which allows them to designate products by how important they are. Class 1 products should never be out of stock as they are tryuly a "core component" of the system. Class 2 are important, but not as critical and may be out of stock. Class 3 are nice to have if MMP can afford to stock them. Class 4 are gravey and may or may not only be printed once.


CLASS 1
  • ASL Rulebook
  • ASLSK
  • Beyond Valor
  • Maps
CLASS 2
  • Yanks
  • For King and Country
  • Hollow Legions
  • West of Alamein
  • Code of Bushido
  • Gung Ho!
  • Croix de Guerre
  • The Last Hurrah
  • Partisan
  • Doomed Battalions
CLASS 3
  • Paratrooper
  • Kampfgruppe Peiper
  • Kampfgruppe Peiper II
  • Red Barricades
  • Operation Watchtower
  • Pegasus Bridge
  • Blood Reef Tarawa
  • A Bridge Too Far
  • Operation Veritable
CLASS 4
  • ASL Annuals
  • ASL Journals
  • Action Pack 1
  • Action Pack 2
  • Streets of Fire
  • Hedgerow Hell
I'm wearing my flame-proof underwear . . . :freak:
 

Minaya

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I like your annalysis Don. I would just add that class2 could be eventually out of stock but should be reprinted asap.

But there is something I will like to discuss a bit more:

Don Maddox said:
Now are there people who truly cannot afford a $100 module once per year? Yes, there certainly are.
(...)
many people will blow $40 at Walmart on a couple of DVD's on an impulse buy, or they will spend $18 on a chicken dinner and not even think about it. I think almost all of us agree that ASL is a good value for the cost
Yes, that is true, but we usually don't live alone... and you have to tell your wife this $100 dollars expended in your hobby.:confused: I can do it (actually she offered me the ASL Rulebook and BV as a gift) but certainly many people will think twice before purchasing a new module for their collection. I know that ithis may be read as an humoristic post, but I am sure it is not for many potential gamers.
 

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da priest said:
The ASLRB and BV inventory will be financed by the sale of AoO and some of those Gamers games. They will never reach a high enuf number pre-order to provide the hoped for needed future supply.
I seem to remember reading on these forums that the ASLRB was to be financed by Starter Kit #1 if it was a success... which I believe it has been?
 

da priest

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Hams said:
I seem to remember reading on these forums that the ASLRB was to be financed by Starter Kit #1 if it was a success... which I believe it has been?
Boy I don't recall that, but could be way back before they decided to go with color in the rules.:surprise: When they thru in color they were almost selling it at cost to the stores. Only direct sales gave them any kind of cushion.:nervous:

Note this is the same with the ASLRB, they keep the cost down to start the habit.:OHNO:
 
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