Best/Favorite Victory Conditions

What are your favorite Victory Conditions?

  • Exit -- Earning VP by exiting units from the mapboard.

    Votes: 8 12.9%
  • Casualty -- Earning VP by inflicting casualties upon the enemy.

    Votes: 11 17.7%
  • Control -- Earning VP or gaining credit for controlling terrain.

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • Taking Ground -- Friendly Good Order units or similar within range of terrain feature.

    Votes: 18 29.0%
  • Clear/Deny Ground -- Remove enemy Good Order units or similar from within range of terrain feature.

    Votes: 12 19.4%
  • Interdiction -- Have LOS to/inflict FP within range of terrain feature.

    Votes: 6 9.7%
  • Alternate Options -- Win by one VC < OR > another VC.

    Votes: 28 45.2%
  • Combination -- Win by one VC < AND > another VC.

    Votes: 17 27.4%
  • Accumulation -- Win by accumulating VP via multiple possible VC.

    Votes: 12 19.4%
  • Other -- Any not mentioned, e.g. Blind or Hidden VC

    Votes: 7 11.3%
  • Provisional -- Any of the above, provided the Attacker does not also suffer some other condition, e.

    Votes: 18 29.0%

  • Total voters
    62

Treadhead

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The recent discussions about scenario balance got me thinking about Victory Conditions. I decided to do a brief survey through my collection of Official scenarios, just to get a feel for the types and number of different Victory Conditions that challenge us.

While it is difficult to tell by just reading a scenario's Victory Conditions, my impression is that many VC are pretty... bland. While others perhaps try too hard. Some are very creative.

On one hand, I want to believe that the Victory Conditions have a direct influence on whether a scenario is a true classis. While that may certainly be true, it is not the VC alone the creates the classic, but rather the synthesis of the scenario's elements; indeed, I think the simpler VC are the better VC.

At any rate, I thought it would be interesting to survey the playing -- and designing -- community, to see which Victory Conditions are your favorite to play as the Attacker, or which Victory Conditions make for the best scenarios.

And, please feel free to elaborate at will on the concept of Victory Conditions in general, how you handle them, and feel about them in the context of the game system itself.

This is a MULTIPLE CHOICE poll, so vote for as many as apply.


Thanks in advance for your responses and elaborations!

Regards,
Bruce
 

wrongway149

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T

And, please feel free to elaborate at will on the concept of Victory Conditions in general, how you handle them, and feel about them in the context of the game system itself.

Regards,
Bruce
I prefer variations on the theme of terrain control/capture.

Sometimes creativity goes a bit far, as in 'Beyond the Pakfronts'

Great scenario otherwise-- mindbending VC bring it down to a 9 out of possible 10.
:nuts:
 
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Treadhead

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I voted for:

Taking Ground. What I have in mind is something like that found in "Action at Balberkamp", where the Attacker must clear a continuous line of road hexes.

Interdict. Check out "Bridge to Nowhere". A fantastic scenario, where the Russians must have LOS to the bridge, and must be able to inflict a certain number of FP on the bridge.

Other. I really like the concept of the Victory Conditions found in "Last Defense Line", where the Attacker selectly draws a chit that indicates his objectives. This is not revealed to the Defender until the end. It sounds fascinating. I have not had a chance to play this, it is on my perpetual "must play" list. [Interestingly, it is the only one like this that I found in my quick survey. Does that mean it is a bad concept? Or just too difficult to playtest?]


[Damn! I just realized that I forget to include some options in my poll!!!! Can I revise that???]
 

Michael Dorosh

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I voted other. There are no "good" VC or "bad" VC; in my opinion, they should adequately represent what the forces in the historical action being simulated were really trying to achieve.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of "instant win" VC and kind of like the drama of games that go to the last turn. Which is completely "gamey" and runs counter to my historical bent, but, in the end, it is "just" a game.

Mostly, though, I'd like to see asymmetric VC and even hidden VC to be more realistic, which would still be fun in a games sense.
 

Treadhead

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I do not believe I have the capability of revising the poll.

I was going to include the following options:

Immediate -- Scenario ends the instant the VC are met.

Game End -- VC are determined at the end of the scenario.

Turn End -- VC are checked at the end of a Player or Game Turn.


I also feel I should have made more clear that this is a MULTIPLE CHOICE poll, or maybe I should have elaborated in the question.

Oh, well.

Sleep. Give me slee-e-e-ep.
 

wrongway149

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Other. I really like the concept of the Victory Conditions found in "Last Defense Line", where the Attacker selectly draws a chit that indicates his objectives. This is not revealed to the Defender until the end. It sounds fascinating. I have not had a chance to play this, it is on my perpetual "must play" list. [Interestingly, it is the only one like this that I found in my quick survey. Does that mean it is a bad concept? Or just too difficult to playtest?]
I've played it-the multiple VC are the best part.

Yes, that is difficult to playtest. I think it was an old SL/COD idea.
 

Glennbo

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I realize that I am very much in the minority, but my favorite is Exit EVP.

Second I chose "Control". I also like "Interdiction".

I very much like the immediate Victory possibility.

Best of all is having multiple VC to coose from.

:)

From a designing standpoint, I'm finding it very difficult to come up with original, interesting VC that don't become too complicated or silly.

I've designed four scenarios in the last month for Dezign Pak 4, and three of them have multiple VC to choose from. Most offer a choice between exit/control. A couple offer one side a chance of immediate Victory if a certain difficult task is performed. :shy:
 
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Glennbo

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I would like to add that Mark Pitcavages "Scenario Designers Guide" has a lot of great, underused VC ideas in it. But unfortunately I've found that unless one designs a scenario "backward"...that is starting with one of these unusual VC and then building a scenario around it, that it is very difficult to arbitrarily insert them into a design.

When designing, I find a source that desscribes an interesting battle in some detail, and then try to build a scenario that replicates it as closely as possible. That usually means that the VC is determined more by the design source and actual battle than some offbeat , "cool" VC choice I might wish to make.

:)
 

DerBlitzer

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Other. I really like the concept of the Victory Conditions found in "Last Defense Line", where the Attacker selectly draws a chit that indicates his objectives. This is not revealed to the Defender until the end. It sounds fascinating.
Yes, this is a method occasionally used in Combat Mission (called Dynamic Flags), and makes for a great game. Would love to see it more in ASL. There's also one scenario I saw in which the defender secretly chooses from several possible reinforcements, and his choice determines the attacker's VC, which is only revealed when the reinforcements arrive.

Another type of VC, which is rarely done (and which I've proposed elsewhere), is the movie mission: blow up a bridge, rescue a valuable prisoner, assasinate a general, knock out the enemy's communications center, etc.
 

MLaPanzer

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I think CVP's should be used more. I'm playing AP19 "Winter of their Discontent" right now. It has VC for building control and CVP. I really like this format. Using CVP either for each side or as a cap on the attacker helps keep the attacker in check a bit. I don't think CVP is used enough and I will be searching out more scenerios to play that use them. Also why always the Prisoners do not count double SSR? I don't like that one.
 

Barber

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My favorites are variable VC from which the player gets to choose or dictated by a chit draw. It makes it that much more interesting for the defender.

I also like CV caps as they tend to put a damper on last player turn charges.

JB
 

Doug Kirk

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I really don't like exit VC, but other than that, I don't care. A good variety in a scenario pack is fine. When in doubt keep the VC simple. Complicated VC are fine occasionally if they are done properly, but if not done exactly right they can kill a scenario's appeal.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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paradoxically, i like EVP scenarios, even though i hate EVP VCs; the fact that I suck at them really tugs at me to become proficient at them...but, as my kids often say, "Dad, you're weird". (And they when they say it, you can hear the word "weird" italicised...)
 

Michael Dorosh

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Yes, this is a method occasionally used in Combat Mission (called Dynamic Flags), and makes for a great game. Would love to see it more in ASL.
I actually did a version of the GI:AOV scenario about Hamminkeln in Combat Mission using dynamic flags. It worked out well. For an opposed airdrop...
 
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