Berserkers and Broken Enemy Units.

[Tim Niesen]

After rereading both the Berserker rules and the Massacre rules, I have questions. We have a likely charge of a Berserker toward a half squad that may or may not break. However, with six fires against the half squad in our defense fire, and three or four more in the prep fire of the following turn, he is likely to be broken by the time of the Berserker's charge. The Berserker if he enters the hex may use Advancing Fire first and subsequently engages in CC with the broken unit. However, none of these two methods results in a massacre. If the broken unit still coexists with the Berserker after the CC, will he then attempt to surrender to the Berserker, or will the broken unit stay there and try to escape the next CC phase? Perhaps the terrain would have something to do with this issues. Tim

 

[jrv]

After rereading both the Berserker rules and the Massacre rules, I have questions. We have a likely charge of a Berserker toward a half squad that may or may not break. However, with six fires against the half squad in our defense fire, and three or four more in the prep fire of the following turn, he is likely to be broken by the time of the Berserker's charge. The Berserker if he enters the hex may use Advancing Fire first and subsequently engages in CC with the broken unit. However, none of these two methods results in a massacre. If the broken unit still coexists with the Berserker after the CC, will he then attempt to surrender to the Berserker, or will the broken unit stay there and try to escape the next CC phase? Perhaps the terrain would have something to do with this issues.

Most probably the berserker will not end up in Melee with a broken unit. The berserker charges to the location with the half squad during its MPh. During the AFPh the berserker may fire TPBF at the unit in its hex. If the half squad target survives, conduct the RtPh. The half squad may be broken already, or it could voluntarily break at the beginning of the RtPh. If by either reason it is broken, it routs out of the hex if possible, and if not, it is eliminated for failure to rout. The berserker will not have any unit in its location to fight in CC and will remain berserk.

It is very tricky to get a berserk unit into Melee with a broken unit. In most cases where that happens I would expect the unit breaks after Melee has formed. Alternately the enemy unit might go berserk after Melee has formed. Can a berserk unit use a tunnel? Perhaps that is another way.

JR

 

[Robin Reeve]

Massacre only occurs vs. prisoners.
Berserk units don't capture prisoners through the RtPh process nor during CCPh.
So I don't think that Massacre is possible at all.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The Berserker if he enters the hex may use Advancing Fire first and subsequently engages in CC with the broken unit.

If the HS is broken due to AFPh, it will rout away during the RtPh.
It won't be there for the CC.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Massacre only occurs vs. prisoners.

Can also happen if you shot at abandoned prisoners (now Unarmed units).

A20.53:
"...Abandoned prisoners are still subject to the protection of 20.3-.4 (i.e., an abandoned prisoner subsequently eliminated by the side that abandoned it causes the Massacre rule to take immediate effect)...."

Though perhaps not an issue for OP's situation.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I was indeed trying to keep within the limits of Tim's example.

 

[von Marwitz]

Can also happen if you shot at abandoned prisoners (now Unarmed units).

A20.53:
"...Abandoned prisoners are still subject to the protection of 20.3-.4 (i.e., an abandoned prisoner subsequently eliminated by the side that abandoned it causes the Massacre rule to take immediate effect)...."

Though perhaps not an issue for OP's situation.

A follow-up question on this one:
The Massacre rule is limited to certain unit (SS for example). So can any unit fire on abandoned prisoners causing the Massacre rule to take immediate effect or are only units normally allowed to use the Massacre rule allowed to fire on abandoned prisoners?

von Marwitz

 

[Tim Niesen]

Thanks for all your comments. I knew that there was something wrong with my view of the situation. Usually, I find that my Berserkers die before they get to the target unit's hex, and usually the target unit is not broken. I have seen so many Berserkers die or half squad on their way in open ground toward the target that it is almost uncanny. I cannot remember seeing the situation where a Berserker charged a broken unit. I guess I should play more ASL! in this campaign game this is the first HOB for the Soviet forces. First Berserker in 8 turns. The Rumanians have gotten one hero on their one HOB roll. The paucity of HOB results in the campaign game has been unusual. Tim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A follow-up question on this one:
The Massacre rule is limited to certain unit (SS for example). So can any unit fire on abandoned prisoners causing the Massacre rule to take immediate effect or are only units normally allowed to use the Massacre rule allowed to fire on abandoned prisoners?

von Marwitz

Any unit.

 

[Tim Niesen]

I think what I did not grasp was that the berserker could not hold the broken squad in melee, and therefore the broken unit could rout out of the hex. When this happens, does the berserker then again charge the nearest enemy unit? Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

A reread of JR answer reveals that indeed the Berserker charges again, but what happens if the advancing fire eliminates the broken or unbroken unit? More likely if the latter. Does this action satisfy the requirements of a Berserker? Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

Should have read, .. more likely if the former...

 

[jrv]

The berserker will hold a broken unit in Melee entirely satisfactorily. The hard part is getting into Melee in the first place. When the Berserk unit enters the target hex, it does not usually immediately enter Melee. A broken unit will frequently scamper off, and voluntary breaking an unbroken unit is a valid tactic when dealing with a broken unit you can't beat or don't want to try. That leaves the berserker still mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, which is often better for the opponent. A way to get into Melee with a broken unit is if the berserk charges a broken leader. The berserk unit must perform an immediate infantry OVR during the MPh. If it fails to kill, it is placed in Melee immediately per the Infantry OVR rules.

JR

 

[jrv]

Ah, here's another way a berserk unit can end up in Melee with a broken unit. A broken unit can end up in Melee with a non-berserk unit (perhaps it entered concealed), and a berserk unit can charge the Melee.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

Okay. So far I understand. But if the Berserker units kills the broken unit with his advancing fire does that fulfill his obligation, and the Berserker becomes a good order unit again? That would seem to fulfill its mission. Maybe this is so obvious that my question is dubious. Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

Or maybe I am mixing up the sequence of play. Tim

 

[jrv]

Okay. So far I understand. But if the Berserker units kills the broken unit with his advancing fire does that fulfill his obligation, and the Berserker becomes a good order unit again? That would seem to fulfill its mission. Maybe this is so obvious that my question is dubious.

Per A15.46, if it kills all units in its location in the AFPh, it is no longer berserk.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

So if after movement phase, the Berserker has not reached the target unit, but nonetheless kills that unit during the advancing fire phase, a new target is chosen at the start of the next movement phase? Tim

 

[Robin Reeve]

Open your rulebook.
Go to Chapter A.
Paragraph 15.
Then read down to A15.431, which speaks by itself to answer your question.

A15.431 : ... Should the only Known enemy unit no longer be in his LOS in the interim, the berserk unit still charges toward the hex originally occupied by that unit. If it still sees no Known enemy unit, it ends its move after entering that Location, and the berserk status is removed at the end of that current phase. Otherwise, it continues its charge to the now nearest Known enemy unit.

 

[jrv]

So if after movement phase, the Berserker has not reached the target unit, but nonetheless kills that unit during the advancing fire phase, a new target is chosen at the start of the next movement phase?

If the target moves away or is eliminated before the berserker reaches it, it will potentially charge a new target, depending on the overall situation. If there are other units in LOS at the start of the next MPh, it charges one of those. Otherwise you have to keep track of enemy units as they leave LOS. It will charge the location where it saw the last one, which might the location its original target, or it might the location of another enemy unit, depending on which units left LOS when.

We are expecting MMP to release a Berserk Charge Target Location counter to make it easy and convenient to record the location where the Berserk unit last saw an enemy unit. Of course we will need a range of these Berserk Charge Target counters, A-Z, aa-zz, to make it clear which berserk unit is charging toward which target.

JR