Berserk & Lax for ambush purposes

[dwardzala]

In the midst of Bread Factory #2 (Hi Ken) and the following situation has come up.

A Russian 248 and 8-1 leader have gone berserk during the German movement phase. In the advance phase, the German advances several MMC into their location.

For purposes of ambush determination, what are the mods for the Russian. I believe they are +1:

+1 for berserk per 11.4 (only)

Per 15.42 the leadership mod does not apply.

Per 11.17 the unit is not stealthy because it is no longer GO.

I see no rules reference in 11.18 or 15.4 which indicates that the Russians are now lax. Am I missing a reference somewhere?

Is there any other reason that they would not be able to ambush the Germans if the dice indicate as such?

 

[McFinn]

I thought Beserker's were lax as well, I found nothing in the ASLRB sections (unless I missed it) on Berserk or Lax, or in the Index to indicate Berserkers are lax.

Maybe I thought so because of the +1 beserkers get on the ambush table.

Human wavers are lax.

So, after a rules reveiw, I say the berserkers are not lax.

They can definately ambush if they roll low enough (assuming other conditions for ambush are met)

 

[Georgii2222]

I thought Beserker's were lax as well, I found nothing in the ASLRB sections (unless I missed it) on Berserk or Lax, or in the Index to indicate Berserkers are lax.

Maybe I thought so because of the +1 beserkers get on the ambush table.

Human wavers are lax.

So, after a rules reveiw, I say the berserkers are not lax.

They can definately ambush if they roll low enough (assuming other conditions for ambush are met)

Berserk units are always Lax (11.18) in CC

They're Lax in CC, but it doesn't appear as though it would apply to the ambush roll. Must be what the +1 for berserk is.

 

[Larry]

Another v.2 and v.1 difference. Is this to clarify or to make the ambush roll more severe?

 

[dwardzala]

They're Lax in CC, but it doesn't appear as though it would apply to the ambush roll. Must be what the +1 for berserk is.

This is definitely not what v.2 states; I quote from the tome:

"A SSR may penalize certain units as Lax to reflect their generally unprepared status. All inexperienced personel are considered Lax. A Lax unit must add +1 to its ambush status dr (11.4), concealment growth dr (12.122), searching dr (12.152) and Search Casualties dr (12.154)"

No mention of berserk status causing a unit to become lax.

 

[McFinn]

Ok, I missed A15.432, in my scan of the ASLRB v2 before.

I think my orginal instincts were correct:

As pointed out by Gerogii2222

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLRB A15.432, Last line
Berserk units are always Lax (11.18) in CC​

So berserkers are lax in CC.

In A 11.18 as dwardzala points out

"A SSR may penalize certain units as Lax to reflect their generally unprepared status. All inexperienced personel are considered Lax. A Lax unit must add +1 to its ambush status dr (11.4), concealment growth dr (12.122), searching dr (12.152) and Search Casualties dr (12.154)"​

So the question is why did the designers put "in CC" at the end of A 15.432?

Did they mean lax only in CC. This doesn't make sense, there aren't any penalties for lax in the CC resolution are there? thus no penalties, why mention it?

Did they mean lax in CC Phase? thus giving an additional +1 penalty to ambush roll in addition the +1 penalty for being beserk (this is the way I've always played it)

Did they mean lax period. Beserkers are always lax and the "in CC" is extraneous? Not that berserkers get to search, Mop up, or grow concealment, do they? so I think the designers could have just removed the "in CC" from the end of A 15.432 unless there is something I'm missing.

 

[dwardzala]

Ah Hah,

I missed that little 7 word sentence at the end of 15.432. I believe its intent is that the berserkers are lax for the entire CC phase.

You would think the index would have a reference to 15.432 under lax.

Sadly that means my guys are dead!

Thanks for everyone's help.

Oh well.

 

[Georgii2222]

Ok, I missed A15.432, in my scan of the ASLRB v2 before.

I think my orginal instincts were correct:

As pointed out by Gerogii2222

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLRB A15.432, Last line
Berserk units are always Lax (11.18) in CC​

So berserkers are lax in CC.

In A 11.18 as dwardzala points out

"A SSR may penalize certain units as Lax to reflect their generally unprepared status. All inexperienced personel are considered Lax. A Lax unit must add +1 to its ambush status dr (11.4), concealment growth dr (12.122), searching dr (12.152) and Search Casualties dr (12.154)"​

So the question is why did the designers put "in CC" at the end of A 15.432?

Did they mean lax only in CC. This doesn't make sense, there aren't any penalties for lax in the CC resolution are there? thus no penalties, why mention it?

Did they mean lax in CC Phase? thus giving an additional +1 penalty to ambush roll in addition the +1 penalty for being beserk (this is the way I've always played it)

Did they mean lax period. Beserkers are always lax and the "in CC" is extraneous? Not that berserkers get to search, Mop up, or grow concealment, do they? so I think the designers could have just removed the "in CC" from the end of A 15.432 unless there is something I'm missing.

This is the point that I was trying to make. The +1 for being berserk on the ambush dr may be in lieu of the +1 for being lax, due to the 'in CC' remark at the end of the rule. I don't know, I'm just babbling I guess. :cheeky:

 

[Ole Boe]

I'm pretty sure that a berserk must add +2 to its Ambush roll, +1 for berserk and +1 for Lax.

A15.432 which tells that the berserk is Lax (during CC) points to A11.18, and A11.18 tells us to add +1 in for the Ambush roll for a Lax unit. The Ambush roll is certainly part of CC.

So beware of enemy units advancing into your berserk unit's Location.