Berserk charges AFV with IFE

Neal

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We're still getting our full ASL armor legs under us and had this situation arise today that confused us because the RB was making us crosseyed on how IFE is treated in a situation like this. Hopefully it's simple and our brains just short circuited...

4-4-7 goes berserk in U4 after spending 1 MF in MPh. Immediately turns and charges the Italian L6 in 07. The L6 has 4 IFE and 2 CMG.

How is the IFE treated? If he fires at Q6 with IFE, can he again fire it using sustained fire? And/or if the berserk makes it into the hex is the AFV forced to FPF using sustained IFE? And if so is the DR still a NMC? And if the crew fails what happens?

We know how to handle berserk charges against infantry, but are struggling a bit when they charge other units like an AFV with IFE.

I don't know why this situation is making my brain hurt, but that's what happens when you fall into the rulebook rabbit hole.?

Thanks.

14643
 

Robin Reeve

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Only Infantry can Subsequent First Fire.
 

Pyth

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If the IFE weapon is on a vehicle it can't SFF/FPF. A vehicle doesn't have SFF/FPF capability only infantry do. When the main armament of a vehicle has IFE you can think of the IFE as an option to use the MA like an MG MA: It has fp and uses the IFT and is subject to the limitations of MG MA.

Your IFE weapon can fire, with condtional ROF (ROF-1), at the beserker until the MA is out of shots or the zerks stop expending MF, whichever comes first. Then the weapon is marked with a first fire counter. Unlike the regular AFV MGs, the IFE weapon can use sustained fire in the DFPh. It has sustained fire B# penalties and can only fire at adjacent or same hex targets with PBF/2 or TPBF/2 as appropriate.
 
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Eagle4ty

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We're still getting our full ASL armor legs under us and had this situation arise today that confused us because the RB was making us crosseyed on how IFE is treated in a situation like this. Hopefully it's simple and our brains just short circuited...

4-4-7 goes berserk in U4 after spending 1 MF in MPh. Immediately turns and charges the Italian L6 in 07. The L6 has 4 IFE and 2 CMG.

How is the IFE treated? If he fires at Q6 with IFE, can he again fire it using sustained fire? And/or if the berserk makes it into the hex is the AFV forced to FPF using sustained IFE? And if so is the DR still a NMC? And if the crew fails what happens?

We know how to handle berserk charges against infantry, but are struggling a bit when they charge other units like an AFV with IFE.

I don't know why this situation is making my brain hurt, but that's what happens when you fall into the rulebook rabbit hole.?

Thanks.

View attachment 14643
Yes the AFV can use Sustained Fire for its IFE MA (only; use of the CMG NA) and suffers penalties as noted for malfunction/disablement (C2.29 & A9.3). If need be it can also use FPF (A8.31) with all the attendant penalties [EXC: The Inherent crew will not be broken but may suffer a Stun/STUN result {See 1st sentence of D5.34} as well as any adverse effects to it armament.

[Edit] The parts with a strike through have been proven to be incorrect.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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A vehicle can use neither Subsequent Fire Fire, not Final Protective Fire. An IFE-capable weapon can use Sustained Fire, but only in the DFPh vs adjacent/same-hex targets.

8.3 SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE: A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) already marked with a First Fire counter may Defensive First Fire again during that MPh as Area Fire by flipping its First Fire counter over to the Final Fire side...

8.31 FINAL PROTECTIVE FIRE (FPF): FPF is a Subsequent First Fire option available only to DEFENDING Infantry already marked with a Final Fire counter..
 
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Robin Reeve

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During the enemy MPh, I think that an IFE capable weapon which is marked with a First Fire counter could Intensive Fire as ordnance, though.
 

Pyth

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I edited my earlier post so that it doesn't suggest all IFE is vehicular. A Gun with IFE and manned by infantry can SFF/FPF.
 

Neal

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8.3 SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE: A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) already marked with a First Fire counter may Defensive First Fire again during that MPh as Area Fire by flipping its First Fire counter over to the Final Fire side...
Ahh, I think this is what was tripping me up. For some reason I equated "Infantry Fire Equivalent" as being "equivalent" to an "Infantry unit" firing. So vehicle units cannot SFF at all. Guns with IFE capability manned by infantry units can.

Seems like an AFV can be fairly vulnerable to a berserk charge in most situations.

In our case the AFV mistakenly firing its IFE in SFF didn't come into play anyway, as the zerk squad was smoked by a MMG in K4.

Thanks for the replies.
 

gorkowskij

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This triggers a related question that I have pondered lately. I'd appreciate any answer/advice anyone has to offer; here's the Q.

If during Defensive First Fire my AFV fires its MA and does NOT get rate, is it then subject to the range restrictions of SFF, i.e. subsequent shots can go no further than the nearest enemy unit? That is, would a later intensive fire shot conducted by that AFV's MA during that same movement phase be limited in range to the nearest enemy unit, or could that MA fire any distance, even beyond the nearest enemy unit? If that AFV does not fire MA again during that movement phase, could it intensive fire during the defensive fire phase (DFF) at a non-adjacent target, or would it suffer the range restriction of final fire by someone already marked first fire?

Thanks
 

Pyth

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If it's vehicular, then it's not infantry, SFF isnt available -- as there's no SFF to fire, the SFF range limitation is NA. Good to keep this in mind with half track passengers... they might be mmc firing inherent FP/SWs maybe with a leader directing fire, and their FP isnt halved for being mounted... but they aren't Infantry (they're passengers) and they have no sff or fpf capability.
 

Michael R

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This triggers a related question that I have pondered lately. I'd appreciate any answer/advice anyone has to offer; here's the Q.

If during Defensive First Fire my AFV fires its MA and does NOT get rate, is it then subject to the range restrictions of SFF, i.e. subsequent shots can go no further than the nearest enemy unit? That is, would a later intensive fire shot conducted by that AFV's MA during that same movement phase be limited in range to the nearest enemy unit, or could that MA fire any distance, even beyond the nearest enemy unit? If that AFV does not fire MA again during that movement phase, could it intensive fire during the defensive fire phase (DFF) at a non-adjacent target, or would it suffer the range restriction of final fire by someone already marked first fire?

Thanks
The intensive fire shot is limited in range to the nearest Known Enemy Unit during the MPh; limited to ADJACENT during DFPh.
 

gorkowskij

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I have another brain teaser that puzzles me.

The rules indicate that a half squad/crew that fires a support weapon forfeits its own firepower, but I can't find the same for a GUN. So, does a crew that fires a GUN forfeit its own firepower? And, on a related note, when a hs or crew forfeits its inherent firepower in this way does that prohibit the SFF or FFF with inherent firepower after firing the GUN (or support weapon)? For example, if during the Russian movement phase my German crew fires its 88 ATG to kill a Russian tank two hexes away with a colored die too high to retain ROF can that 88 gun crew later (in the same movement phase) use its inherent firepower as SFF against a Russian squad that moves adjacent? Or, has that crew forsaken all SFF, FPF with inherent firepower by virtue of having fired the gun?
 

klasmalmstrom

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The rules indicate that a half squad/crew that fires a support weapon forfeits its own firepower, but I can't find the same for a GUN. So, does a crew that fires a GUN forfeit its own firepower?
A7.352:
7.352
A crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353]
 

Pyth

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A7.352:
7.352
A crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353]
I just noticed this, so correct me if I'm wrong please (as if that needed saying, lol)... but reading A7.352 I think it's worth pointing out... needing to be marked with prep or first fire isn't mentioned only that the gun be fired.... so keeping ROF or not is beside the point. The crew/hs/smc/ cannot use inherent until CC if the SW/Gun is fired.
 

gorkowskij

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Thanks Klas and comrades, good instruction today. On ROF, I mentioned missing it just to take the gun out of the mix and avoid retorts like, "Why not fire the gun again instead?"
 

klasmalmstrom

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I just noticed this, so correct me if I'm wrong please (as if that needed saying, lol)... but reading A7.352 I think it's worth pointing out... needing to be marked with prep or first fire isn't mentioned only that the gun be fired.... so keeping ROF or not is beside the point. The crew/hs/smc/ cannot use inherent until CC if the SW/Gun is fired.
Can still use its inherent FP as SFF/FPF, per A7.353.
 
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