BD Revealing Caves

[Hexagoner]

Me and my opponent disagree on when Caves are revealed in BD7.

One of us says Caves are only revealed by the criteria specified in E1.16:
"It takes an action listed in E1.16, searching, or drifting WP to reveal a hidden cave.From what I read caves are like HIP Japanese infantry in jungle. The only way to find them is by searching (recon by fire is another possibility, but very improbable.)"

The other of us says Caves are automatically revealed by an enemy LOS to the cave (in CA) in 16 hexes. Caves are always treated as being in ? terrain per Cave rules.
"Question: If the Cave is not set up in jungle, kunai, or bamboo then I believe the normal rules for it losing hidden status (A12.33) applies - i.e., as soon as it comes into LOS of a Good Order enemy unit it is placed on the map?
Answer: If it is set up in jungle, kunai, or bamboo - then G.2 - i.e., E1.16 applies. So whether the Cave is set up in concealment terrain or not does not matter, I think."

What say the experts here?

 

[DVexile]

Yeah, BD7 isn't written very well is it?

My interpretation would be that if a Cave is setup in actual Concealment Terrain (i.e. ignore "always considered to be in Concealment Terrain" in G11.3 and A12.33) then E1.16 applies despite being a daytime scenario. If a Cave is setup in non-Concealment Terrain then G11.3 applies as is for a daytime scenario (in other words, E1.16 does not apply).

Most any other interpretation makes BD7 irrelevant. In general I reject interpretations of SSRs that mean the SSR is pointless and need not have been written in the first place, that usually means you aren't following the designer's intent.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll get an answer straight from the horse's mouth soon!

 

[wlee123]

Yeah, BD7 isn't written very well is it?

My interpretation would be that if a Cave is setup in actual Concealment Terrain (i.e. ignore "always considered to be in Concealment Terrain" in G11.3 and A12.33) then E1.16 applies despite being a daytime scenario. If a Cave is setup in non-Concealment Terrain then G11.3 applies as is for a daytime scenario (in other words, E1.16 does not apply).

Most any other interpretation makes BD7 irrelevant. In general I reject interpretations of SSRs that mean the SSR is pointless and need not have been written in the first place, that usually means you aren't following the designer's intent.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll get an answer straight from the horse's mouth soon!

I have been playing a lot of BD lately and this is how we interpreted it. During setup all caves set up HIP. If they are not in concealment terrain then they are revealed when in LOS, within the caves CA and within 16 hexes range.

When the cave is in concealment terrain E1.16 applies. Keep in mind that on the BD map the “broken ground” hexes are concealment terrain so there are a lot of places the “hide” your caves. Have fun!

 

[cVan]

My interpretation would be that if a Cave is setup in actual Concealment Terrain (i.e. ignore "always considered to be in Concealment Terrain" in G11.3 and A12.33) then E1.16 applies despite being a daytime scenario. If a Cave is setup in non-Concealment Terrain then G11.3 applies as is for a daytime scenario (in other words, E1.16 does not apply).

Your interpretation was design intention. E1.16 applies to caves set up in Concealment Terrain.

 

[DVexile]

Your interpretation was design intention. E1.16 applies to caves set up in Concealment Terrain.

Awesome, thanks! And thanks of course for all the work you put into such a cool HASL!

 

[Hexagoner]

Thanks guys, and cVan. Reading E1.16, I don't understand what ""remain hidden until...enemy unit enters the Location that contains it (or enters a pillbox's - but not a cave's hex)".
Is the Location that contains it the Cave hex (i.e. not the entrance hex for a crestline cave)? For a crestline cave, how it the Location that contains it different from the cave's hex? Very confusing.

So a few specific questions. Understanding the Cave and occupants are hidden in ALL hexes on the bD map b/c G11.3 sez all caves treated as in ? terrain.

1. If an enemy unit enters a crestline Cave hex (NOT Entrance hex), nothing is revealed.
2. If an enemy unit enters a Cave Entrance hex (for either type of cave) - is the cave revealed?

The other cases - searching, TEM is used or xtra MP used to enter/exit the cave in LOS of enemy are clear so no question. The last case about denied entry for enemy trying to enter the cave makes no sense since an enemy unit couldn't attempt entry of a cave it didn't know existed.

 

[cVan]

Thanks guys, and cVan. Reading E1.16, I don't understand what ""remain hidden until...enemy unit enters the Location that contains it (or enters a pillbox's - but not a cave's hex)".
Is the Location that contains it the Cave hex (i.e. not the entrance hex for a crestline cave)? For a crestline cave, how it the Location that contains it different from the cave's hex? Very confusing.

So a few specific questions. Understanding the Cave and occupants are hidden in ALL hexes on the bD map b/c G11.3 sez all caves treated as in ? terrain.

1. If an enemy unit enters a crestline Cave hex (NOT Entrance hex), nothing is revealed.
2. If an enemy unit enters a Cave Entrance hex (for either type of cave) - is the cave revealed?

The other cases - searching, TEM is used or xtra MP used to enter/exit the cave in LOS of enemy are clear so no question. The last case about denied entry for enemy trying to enter the cave makes no sense since an enemy unit couldn't attempt entry of a cave it didn't know existed.

Caves are treated as separate subterranean Locations(G11.1)

If E1.16 is in effect then I would answer your questions as:
1. Correct
2 No