Bazooka/panzerfaust ?

[Tankleader]

Hello All,
I was playing an all infantry scenario the other day Defiance on Hill 30. I was playing the part of the Americans lugging around the beautiful Bazookas that I found almost worthless because I was limited in their use against infantry. On page C21 Rule 13. States, "The term LATW includes all ordnance weapons represented by SW-size counters whose main use is against armor." Now, in Playing Defiance on Hill 30 I was told that I couldn't use these weapons against infantry in woods, open terrain, or any type of fortified position except in buildings. Being a newbie on the block and still reading and re-reading the rules I have a simple question;

• WHY?

• Reading the rules I couldn't find a IFT number for the Panzerfaust, but there is and IFT for the Bazooka Column 8 on the IFT. See C22 13.43 states, "depending on the time frame of scenario; vs an unarmored target, a hit is resolved on the 8 column of the IFT (see 8.31).

To me the last bullet authorizes the use of the Bazooka against anything, not just armor? As implied by C22 13.43. The effect of firing a bazooka into a treeline, foxhole, bunker, or a house, the shrapnell can be devestating. I know this isn't reality, but I have spoken to many veterans including Germans that used the PZ or BAZ against anything that moved with great effect. Since the Bazooka already has an IFT of 8 it shouldn't be too hard to change this rule? Now, that leaves the question of what the IFT for a panzerfaust should be? I'm no expert here, except for my real life experiences as a Marine, I think that this should be a no brainer change to the rules? Opinions greatly appreciated.

Tanks
Andy

 

[Dr Zaius]

There are a lot of rules in ASL that could be updated/enhanced/simplified/deleted to make the game more enjoyable and realistic. The problem is that it takes so long to learn the rules and constant changes to the system will throw everyone off. There is a fair amount of errata out there, but outright rule changes are few and far between.

 

[Tankleader]

There are a lot of rules in ASL that could be updated/enhanced/simplified/deleted to make the game more enjoyable and realistic. The problem is that it takes so long to learn the rules and constant changes to the system will throw everyone off. There is a fair amount of errata out there, but outright rule changes are few and far between.

I can see your point, my point is that reading the rules, I didn't see it saying that said you couldn't use the Bazooka against infantry targets, since they are (they didn't really wear body armor back then :devil: ) unarmored targets which could apply to the statement in C13.43, so this wouldn't need to be a change, now it would for the panzerfaust I agree (since there isn't even a hint of using the panzerfaust against unarmored targets). So if the end result is the allied player having an advantage with this type of weapon then great. IMHO

Tanks
Andy

 

[da priest]

I can see your point, my point is that reading the rules, I didn't see it saying that said you couldn't use the Bazooka against infantry targets,

C8.31 HE EQUIVALENCY: ... HEAT may only be fired at a vehicle or Gun, or at Infantry/Cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM.

Limits Baz use against infantry in same way as 'faust...

And don' go tryin' ta change ma rulebook :ar15:

 

[Tankleader]

C8.31 HE EQUIVALENCY: ... HEAT may only be fired at a vehicle or Gun, or at Infantry/Cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM.

Limits Baz use against infantry in same way as 'faust...

And don' go tryin' ta change ma rulebook :ar15:

Ok, I see and I read and I understand, but that still doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to why?????? People wouldn't want the ability to shoot the BAZ against infantry???? besides having to use it after they run into a building, hide on a vehicle, scoot behind a wall, or duck into a foxhole (ooops can't use it there) :devil: . Now, if I were to argue I would use the slight little loophole in the rules that says u can against an unarmored target in C 13.43 seeing how troops are unarmored targets. I can reach a compromise and just say we can't use them at all, since it seems that we have a rule that potentially cancels the other out (ok I am being arguementative here as instructed to be by others that would like to see a change). Well that's it for me as I am a newbie and just thought I would see what the feeling was, god I wonder what people would do to me if I fired a Tank HEAT round at troops in a treeline???

Tanks Out
Andy

 

[Minaya]

Talking about BAZ and PF

I guess the reason is that HEAT has to impact something as a wall to explode.

But I'd like to point something: PF don't leave RFP according to C8.31. But why BAZ does?

 

[Tankleader]

I guess the reason is that HEAT has to impact something as a wall to explode.

But I'd like to point something: PF don't leave RFP according to C8.31. But why BAZ does?

I would like to point out that you can fire the BAZ with WP if you are using the BAZ45 C13.46 and C13.9. I was just trying to figure out/why we couldn't use the BAZ if you deemed it necessary to survive. Maybe it has a RFP because of this.. But to be honest with you I didn't see Residual fire power mentioned in regards to the BAZ. I guess the body of an infantry doesn't count as something.

Tanks Out

 

[Minaya]

Rule C13.31 states that PF or PFk don't leave residual fire power due to being one shot weapons, but I still don't see great difference between the use of PF and BAZ.

A side note in C8.31 states that PF does not leave RFP. In the same table BAZ appears with no side note. So, I guess that BAZ does leave RFP, but to be honest too I am not sure about it.

 

[Jeff H]

If I can throw my thoughts into the melting pot .... I think a lot of the answers are in the footnotes of chapter C.

HEAT Equivalency needing Building/Wall etc
Chapter C footnote 20 (1st Ed only for me I'm afraid) says that "HEAT was designed to detonate at a pre-determined distance from the target's surface, and channel the explosion .... to burn through armour".
Thus I would say HEAT needs to hit a "hard" surface as opposed to an Infantryman's body to have a "large scale" effect as portrayed in the game by MC/K/KIA.
(Although I still wouldn't want to be the man hit by such a round ....)
So for the game there is the restriction at firing BAZ (and all other Shaped Charge Weapons) at infantry as they are all firing HEAT not normal HE like guns etc.

BAZ having Residual FP but PF doesn't
Footnote C8 "multiple hits" says that the To Hit mechanics require that each "shot" in the game represents the firing of an unspecified number of rounds by a weapon. (This isn't Rate of Fire as that is a seperate issue).
Thus for a BAZ (and PanzerSchreck and Piat) each shot at an AFV or Infantry in a house is actually several shots, so there may be an extra effect on other units moving through the hex ie residual fire power.
However a PF (and PFk) is a true "one-shot" weapon; a PF shot does not represent "an unspecified number" of PFs being fired off at a target but just one, so no residual fire power.

I bet that's as clear as mud now isn't it. :nuts:

 

[arustum]

If I can throw my thoughts into the melting pot .... I think a lot of the answers are in the footnotes of chapter C.

HEAT Equivalency needing Building/Wall etc
Chapter C footnote 20 (1st Ed only for me I'm afraid) says that "HEAT was designed to detonate at a pre-determined distance from the target's surface, and channel the explosion .... to burn through armour".
Thus I would say HEAT needs to hit a "hard" surface as opposed to an Infantryman's body to have a "large scale" effect as portrayed in the game by MC/K/KIA.
(Although I still wouldn't want to be the man hit by such a round ....)
So for the game there is the restriction at firing BAZ (and all other Shaped Charge Weapons) at infantry as they are all firing HEAT not normal HE like guns etc.

Just as you note, the HEAT round, especially the older ones, is very sensitive to being detonated at a non-optimal distance. Sz, reactive armor, haninging chains, jerry cans, etc all have been added to tanks and AFV with the aim of minimizing hollow charge rounds. Whether or not a HEAT round will detonate on impact with a human body I cannot answer. However, the effect of a HEAT round is very local, consisting mostly of a stream of melted copper or some other sort of metal. Area effect is minimal. In an AFV on the other hand, this metal along with the melted armor of the AFV does wreck havoc.

I once was demonstrated how the Carl Gustav (modern day BAZ, 84mm HEAT) affected an AFV. They had mounted some ex-pigs heads in various positions of a scrapped AFV and fired a HEAT shot at its frontal armor. I tell you there wasn't much left...

 

[Tom Richardson]

C13.31

In C13.31 it states "A PF/PFk hit does not leave Residual FP because it is a one shot weapon with limited application vs Infantry."
You can always make something up for local play using the bazooka rules.

 

[Tankleader]

Thanks Everyone,
I really love the answers that everyone is posting here and I realize that nothing will change. Someone on the other forum posted the explanation of what a HEAT round does and how it functions. I am well aware of this as I am a Master Gunner and this is the stuff that I teach to my crews and Marines. I was just trying to bring out the fact that if you fired a BAZ regardless of year against a wall, building, armored surface (armoured for our British friends) it would result in collateral damage to the infantry basically this is the way it seems to work in the rules with the exception of the tree, or road part.
What I'm learning here is that unless I fire against a tank, or wall of some type my bazooka or PZ is worthless when it comes to ASL. I mean I can't even use it as a last ditch defense to keep from being overrun by infantry so I will fire it causing them to duck so I can leave the area.
Once again thanks for all of the feedback. Boy I learned my lesson about asking a question regarding the rules unless you have the memorized. Don't

Tanks
Andy

 

[hydrou]

Since I´m still new to asl (only 1 1/2 years), I have already played some scenarios from paratrooper, where some Baz or PF can give you quite some help in clearing buildings of nasty MG positions. In a scenario some german HMG gunners had set up in a stone building and couldn´t be cleared by mortar or small arms fire. Almost every squad approaching the building were swept away by accurate HMG fire instantly. So the only chance was to sneak up against them using woods for cover and then take some Baz shots at them. The effect was devastating and the hit was not so difficult to achieve. So, in my opinion, the Baz and PF are worth their bucks.

And some remarks to PF and Baz and their sense in asl. I think I read somewhere, that PF have an IFE of 12, but can´t remember the exact rule and can´t lookup, because being at work now. And for me it makes sense to allow fire of a Baz or PF against hard targets only. They need something to "touch" in order to explode. And a soft body doesn´t do the trick I guess. If you´re lucky you still can hit a single man by a round, but you can´t aim as accurately with a Baz or PF as you can with a rifle. So, to hit a running person could be hard. And then you aren´t sure, if it will explode. Most of the damage could come from collapsing buildings or other structures and the shrapnels will do a hell of a mess in an enclosed room, but in an open field, with shrapnels travelling in every direction it would be the same effect more or less as a handgrenade.

But that´s only IMHO.

 

[Tankleader]

Hello Hydrou,
I agree with what your saying about the round needing something hard to touch in order to work. My question goes back too asking why we can't fire the BAZ or the PF into a woods hex, the round hitting and detonating against a tree is the same principle as the round hitting a wall or side of a building. The blast damage would cause damage against the infantry, the same as if they were in a building.

Tanks Out

 

[hydrou]

But in a building you´ve got an enclosed space, in the woods not. So the blast will be enforced. Furthermore you can fire Baz of PF against bocage or walls, because they are in a row, whereas in woods, the trees won´t stand in a row. So it can happen, that the round will just travel through the woods, not hitting a tree. And still if it hits a tree, the shrapnels will hit other trees, instead your enemy.

 

[Tankleader]

Hydrou,
I agree with you, but the chance still exists that the round will hit something and detonate. On another note, since I am now reading the vehicle rules, I also find it hard to believe that this rule is being applied to HEAT rounds on Tanks as well. I'm glad that they didn't tell the tankers in Kosovo, Bosnia, or Iraq that we couldn't fire HEAT rounds into a wooded area because it wouldn't have an effect, I can tell you that the results were quite effective. (I know reality doesn't count since this is a game). I know that in the U.S. HEAT rounds are considered as the secondary armor defeating round with a secondary purpose of anti-material/personnel as defined in the FM3-20 Tank Gunnery Manual. We are in the process now of actually developing a new type of anti-personell round so we can safe the HEAT rounds.

Tanks Out
Andy

 

[Tom Richardson]

PF, PSK & Bazooka's

I miss the line under C13.33 EX. A PF firing on a stationary vehicular or Infantry target two hexes away has a Modified TH# of 6; if it fired during the AFPh, case 3 would also apply and add a +2 To Hit DRM (unless fired as Opportunity Fire).
The Bazooka fires on the 8 FP IFT and the PSK on the 12 FP line. Now you still have to roll for The Hit # but it is possible to fire at Infantry with all three Support Weapons.

 

[hydrou]

Ok, that´s a point, but asl is "only" a game, but at least the most realistic one out there, that´s still playable (more or less ;-) ). And for sure there are other bugs in the game system as well, since the roots are over 30 years old, despite squad leader, advanced squad leader and now asl v2. So if you are not convinced about the usage of this rule, you can made a house rule for your plays. And furthermore in each game there are made so many mistakes during play, like forgetting some TEM or choosing the wrong terrain type or forfeiting sniper attacks and so on combined with some minor bugs in the game rules, it will surely cancel out, if you play a lot of scenarios on different sides, because one time you play the U.S., next time Japan and so on.

But the most important fact for me is, that asl still makes a lot of fun and each play I find some new rules or some errors made in earlier scenario plays, but as long as my ftf opponent and I are consistent about the result, who else cares?

 

[hydrou]

Made a mistake earlier, PF has an IFE of 16, not 12, 12 was the PSK.

@Tom Richardson: Yes, you can fire the weapons at infantry, but only, when they are inside a building, behind a wall, hedge or bocage.