Bazooka Fire at Guns

[mdnowak]

I was playing 88s at Zon and a situation came up when the American player wanted to take a shot at a German 88 with his bazooka. This resulted in a question as to whether a bazooka can target a gun. Referencing the ASLSK 3 rules, it was noticed that bazookas can fire at infantry if the targeted infantry are in a building. This would involve using 8 FP on the IFT. The rules also stated about firing at a vehicle using the To Kill chart. We could not determine if you can fire a bazooka at a piece of artillery and, if so, how would you resolve the attack. Is the gun to be considered a vehicle that can be destroyed like a tank, is the targeted gun to be considered a building where only the manning crew are affected, or is a gun to small or thin a target where it can't be hit by a bazooka.

We decided, correctly or incorrectly, that the guns could not be fired on by a bazooka and left the 88s to the infantry.

 

[Vinnie]

In the full rules it is clear that a Baz may be fired at a gun:
C8.31:
HEAT may only be fired at a vehicle or Gun, or at Infantry/Cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM.

In the SK Expansion Pack rules, 6.2 defines HEAT as

HEAT: (High Explosive, Anti-Tank): HEAT can only be used against Infantry in buildings or against Guns and vehicles. It has its own To Kill Table, and it attacks on the IFT column one lower than normal for HE. LATW show their FP on the counter. If available for other than SCW, it is listed on the back of the counter as "H".

Unfortunately, the SK BAZ rules do not direct you to this only saying you can target vehicles and infantry in buildings. Since a. BAZ fires HEAT, you can target guns directly.

 

[jrv]

In the full rules it is clear that a Baz may be fired at a gun:
C8.31:
HEAT may only be fired at a vehicle or Gun, or at Infantry/Cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM.

In the SK Expansion Pack rules, 6.2 defines HEAT as

HEAT: (High Explosive, Anti-Tank): HEAT can only be used against Infantry in buildings or against Guns and vehicles. It has its own To Kill Table, and it attacks on the IFT column one lower than normal for HE. LATW show their FP on the counter. If available for other than SCW, it is listed on the back of the counter as "H".

Unfortunately, the SK BAZ rules do not direct you to this only saying you can target vehicles and infantry in buildings. Since a. BAZ fires HEAT, you can target guns directly.

The rule for use of BAZ against Guns is in the section prior to 4.4.1, 4.4 "Light Anti-Tank Weapons (LATW)". Per that rule, BAZ are SCW LATW, and "SCW may also be fired at Guns."

Because the rules on firing on Guns (especially HEAT) always confused me, I include some examples. Assume a squad and a Gun manned by a crew are in the same Open Ground hex. A unit fires its Baz. Because the squad is not in a building nor manning a Gun, it can not be affected. The base TH # is found on the back side of the Baz counter based on range. The DRM are all the usual TH modifiers, e.g. Hindrance, TEM (in this case +0 for Open Ground, but typically will be +2 for emplacement), target size, CX, Leadership, etc (see the To Hit Dice Roll Modifiers table).

If the hit is a critical hit, the Gun and manning crew are destroyed. If not, roll the effects DR (on the IFT, using eight FP for a Baz). If the original result is a KIA, the Gun and crew are destroyed. If the original result is a K/, the crew is Casualty Reduced (which will only make a difference if the Gun is manned by a squad or by SMC) and the Gun is malfunctioned.

If the result is not a KIA or a K/, the Gun has a Gunshield, and the shot came through the CA of the Gun, add two (Gunshield DRM) to the effects DR; otherwise, use the original effects DR. Use the IFT to determine the result based on the (possibly modified) effects DR. That result is applied to the crew. The Gun is not affected.

If the squad and the Gun with crew had both been in a stone building, both could be affected by the attack. Because of the Gun size DRM, the DRM for the two targets could be different. Depending on how they were different (i.e. which one was larger), one target might be hit and the other missed, or they could both be hit or both missed. Typically a Gun in a stone building will prefer the better TEM (+3) of that terrain over its emplacement TEM, but the Gun could choose the emplacement instead. Determining the effects is done as before. The squad, if hit, will use the same effects DR on the eight FP column of the IFT with no DRM.

JR

 

[Der Fleischer]

Great post! I have played this incorrectly in SK but now have a better understanding.

 

[SSTK]

I had the same question.... was final able to connect the dots in ASLSK RB sections 4.4, 6.2, and 6.7 -- SSTK

 

[von Marwitz]

Good post, JR. Unfortunately, I am out of rep.

von Marwitz

 

[kempenfelter]

This is an example of why Starter Kit is key to ASL. I've played ASL for decades, but until I read the original post I had not even considered that SCW could target guns. Amazing, I've been reading C 8.31 wrong all this time. Something to remember when playing S14 88s At Zon.

 

[Mark Pandori]

JR may be correct. but there very well may also be another interpretation:

1. See table C7.33
2. Note the bazooka TK# is 11 vs. unarmored target
3. Note rule 11.6 in Chapter C
4. see that for ordnance against gun, the final tk# die roll determines whether gun is bonked or not
5. the tk# for baz vs. unarmored target is 11
6. good luck gun

 

[jrv]

JR may be correct. but there very well may also be another interpretation:

1. See table C7.33
2. Note the bazooka TK# is 11 vs. unarmored target
3. Note rule 11.6 in Chapter C
4. see that for ordnance against gun, the final tk# die roll determines whether gun is bonked or not
5. the tk# for baz vs. unarmored target is 11
6. good luck gun

There are a couple problems with this. First, this is the Starter Kit sub-forum, and the question was asked about Starter Kit. All of the rules mentioned are from ASL, not from Starter Kit, so even if this correct (which I claim it is not), it does not apply to Starter Kit.

Second, (switching to ASL) per C7.331, "Any unarmored vehicle hit by HEAT has a Final TK# of 11." This is what the C7.33 HEAT TO KILL TABLE summarizes. Third it's not clear to mean what it means when a non-vehicle "fails" a TK#. Per A7.1 hits on vehicles are resolved on TK tables. The C7.7 AFV DESTRUCTION TABLE and UNARMORED VEHICLE DESTRUCTION TABLE show how to resolve a TK DR against a vehicle. In contrast the C11.6 GUN DESTRUCTION TABLE does not mention using a TK#. There is no discussion about resolving a TK DR against anything but vehicles.

JR