B8.2-8.3 Attacking discovered units in a Sewer from manhole other than by First/Final Defensive Fire

Swiftandsure

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Hi all,

Situation: a unit moved by Sewer and was Discovered (per a B8.42 Sewer Emergence chart dr of >7) in a hex with a Manhole Location occupied by an enemy unit.

Here are my questions:

1) Can the DEFENDER in the Manhole Location immediately DFF at it (as the B8.42 dr is done at the end of the moving unit's MPh I have a doubt)?

2) As B8.3 speaks of "-2 Hazardous Movement DRM regardless of fire hase" : does that mean that the DEFENDER, when its Player Turn comes, could Prep Fire at the (surviving) unit in the Sewer again, or does the 8.2 "earlier that Player Turn" condition limit firing from a Manhole Location to Defensive Fire?

Thanks in advance for the answers.
 

Binchois

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I think your hunch is correct. As confirmed by the sequence outlined in the ASOP, D1F is not possible versus the sewer unit (since the Emergence dr is made after the unit ends its MPh). Defensive fire from a unit above the sewer entrance can occur during the DFPh (or later phases, like PFPh) and would benefit from the Hazardous Movement modifier (as confirmed by A4.62):

A4.62 HAZARDOUS MOVEMENT: Certain activities are so dangerous that they automatically incur a -2 IFT DRM to any attacks against units so engaged regardless of fire phase until they are pinned (if subject to Pin results).​

Also confirmed by Q&A:

Q. Does the Hazardous Movement penalty apply to Sewer Movement and Fording as long as the unit is in that terrain? A. Yes.​
 

Swiftandsure

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Thanks.
What do you mean by Defensive Fire during PFPh? Isn't it an oxymoron?
Btw, the B8.42 only speaks of "DF".
My doubts remain.
 

Binchois

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Thanks.
What do you mean by Defensive Fire during PFPh? Isn't it an oxymoron?
Btw, the B8.42 only speaks of "DF".
My doubts remain.
Further confirmation:

Q: ASOP 3.41A seems to imply that no First fire can be directed against just detected sewer units, only Final fire. Is this correct?​
A. No First Fire from above-ground vs sewer units. {2}​
As for Prep Fire, I guess the verdict is out on that. I think units in the same sewer Location (above and below) can fire at each other in any successive fire phase.
 
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Swiftandsure

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So it is clear that only Defensive Final Fire (during DFPh) is allowed from a Manhole Location to Discovered units in a Sewer.
Thanks for the Q&A supporting it.

I still have doubts for the following PFPh or AFPh because B8.2 seems to limit LOS from a Manhole Location to discovered units "earlier that Player Turn".
 

Binchois

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So it is clear that only Defensive Final Fire (during DFPh) is allowed from a Manhole Location to Discovered units in a Sewer.
Thanks for the Q&A supporting it.

I still have doubts for the following PFPh or AFPh because B8.2 seems to limit LOS from a Manhole Location to discovered units "earlier that Player Turn".
I agree that this is unclear. However, the Q&A cited above (regarding Hazardous Movement) suggests that other phases are possible, and I am really not sure why other fire phases would be excluded (since the units remain in the same hex).

I guess a reality counter-argument would be that the sewer rats will immediately turn tail the second they are discovered, though their movement can't be resolved until their next MPh. I think this one needs clarification.
 

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Note that Haz Mov DRM also applies to fire from adjacent units in the Sewer... so it doesn't say anything about the fire phases when units in a Manhole Location may fire.
 

Binchois

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Note that Haz Mov DRM also applies to fire from adjacent units in the Sewer... so it doesn't say anything about the fire phases when units in a Manhole Location may fire.
Yeah. As we go back and forth on this, you have convinced me. As per my reality argument above (post#6), the sewer movers would run for it right after meeting some DF against them. I think there is likely no other fire allowed between these units after that initial DFPh [and AFPh...B8.43]. It still would be be good to hear from Perry (or others!).
 
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I think there is likely no other fire allowed between these units after that initial DFPh. It still would be be good to hear from Perry (or others!).
Clearly the units in the Sewer can fire on the units above them in AFPh because it's right there in B8.43. Firing in PFPh seems less likely to be legal.

B8.43: A unit in a sewer can attack units in the Manhole Location above it only during the AFPh after having been "discovered" by a Sewer Emergence dr >= 7.
 

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Perry's answer :

1) Can a unit in a Manhole Location fire during PFPh at a unit in a Sewer in its hex that was discovered during the previous Player Turn?

2) Can a unit in a Sewer and which was discovered during its previous Player Turn Defensive Fire at an enemy unit in the Manhole Location of its hex?
No to both.

B8.2 requires discovery earlier that Player Turn.


....Perry

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