B25.651 Gusts and SMOKE

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
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Hi all,
I never seem to be able to wrap my mind around the effects on Gusts on SMOKE.
B25.651 says : "A Gust eliminates all dispersed SMOKE and disperses all non-dispersed SMOKE currenlty on the board".
But the ASOP speaks of Dispersing smoke or eliminating Dispersed SMOKE twice in a Turn : during RPh (1.12A step) and during AFPh (5.13A step).
So, for an example, US placed a Smoke FFE in the preceding (US) player turn and, next (German) player turn boxcars are rolled for Wind Change.
Does that mean that, during RPh, the FFE Smoke will be reduced to Dispersed, then during AFPh it will be eliminated ?
Or is it only the Smoke of the Attacker (i.e. the German's in this case) which is affected, as the steps are noted as "A" (attacker) rather than "B" (both)?
 

Eagle4ty

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I've always played it the former way (by step A5.13A all SMOKE existing at the start of the player turn would be eliminated), pretty sure this is correct. Note that even with Gusts, non-Dispersed Smoke may be placed during the PFPh (flipped to Dispersed SMOKE in the AFPh) & Dispersed smoke may be placed during the MPh (sD)/DFPh. Gusts will effect SMOKE from either side during the player-turn during both phases it is in effect.
 

Swiftandsure

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Thanks !
It confirms me that Gusts are a pain...
I am playing RPT45 Operation Buffalo, and the US need to cross some large stretches of Open Ground.
EDIT: I got my example wrong: the smoke FFE was placed in the preceding German Turn, so now the US must disperse their FFE due to Gusts, then it is eliminated as per 2.11A.
But the FFE:2 will place full strength Smoke as per 2.14A, which will remain full strength until the AFPh, where Gusts will disperse it...
Ugh...
 
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bprobst

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But the ASOP speaks of Dispersing smoke or eliminating Dispersed SMOKE twice in a Turn : during RPh (1.12A step) and during AFPh (5.13A step).
So, for an example, US placed a Smoke FFE in the preceding (US) player turn and, next (German) player turn boxcars are rolled for Wind Change.
Does that mean that, during RPh, the FFE Smoke will be reduced to Dispersed, then during AFPh it will be eliminated ?
Or is it only the Smoke of the Attacker (i.e. the German's in this case) which is affected, as the steps are noted as "A" (attacker) rather than "B" (both)?
No, the A means it's the ATTACKER who rolls the wind dice (and any other subsequent required dr/DR). Otherwise you're suggesting that only the ATTACKER's blazes can cause building collapse, etc., which would be silly (at best). Yes, if the wind change DR comes up "gusts", then you flip all full-strength SMOKE counters on board to "Dispersed", and remove all Dispersed SMOKE counters immediately. And then you do it again in the AFPh. So by that point the only SMOKE remaining on board (other than inherent smoke from blazes, etc.) will be new full-strength SMOKE placed during the PFPh (which will now be Dispersed).

The moral of the story is: if you are depending on that SMOKE to cover your planned movement, you can guarantee that the Wind DR will come up "12". :)

Oddly enough this "timed" effect of gusts means that there is no effect whatsoever on SMOKE grenades, which may be placed (and removed) normally during the MPh.
 
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Eagle4ty

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Thanks !
It confirms me that Gusts are a pain...
I am playing RPT45 Operation Buffalo, and the US need to cross some large stretches of Open Ground.
EDIT: I got my example wrong: the smoke FFE was placed in the preceding German Turn, so now the US must disperse their FFE due to Gusts, then it is eliminated as per 2.11A.
But the FFE:2 will place full strength Smoke as per 2.14A, which will remain full strength until the AFPh, where Gusts will disperse it...
Ugh...
Ah, but since the SMOKE from the FFE was placed by the Americans during the previous German PT it would have had to be placed in the DFPh as Dispersed SMOKE anyway and thus would have been eliminated after the American player had rolled Gusts in his PT step 1.12A; hence no SMOKE counters to eliminate in step 2.11A (at least from that source). Yes the American FFE would place Non-Dispersed SMOKE in their PFPh and thence have to flip them to Dispersed SMOKE in the AFPh step 5.13A. It's not so much that Gusts are the pain, but figuring out SMOKE sometimes has me scratching my head.:nod:
 

Swiftandsure

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You are right: placement during DFPh is dispersed (senior moment here)...
The question here is not if I used smoke, but what I actually smoked before asking my questions. ;)
Smoke rules are dispersed (!) in different sections, which doesn't help have a synthetic view.
Happily, the Smoke Summary chart - on the reverse of the Terrain Chart - helps a lot.
 

Roy

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In the same vein.

Gusts are rolled. In prep, a vehicle is burned in bypass of a building. Does the blaze automatically spread to the same hex terrain in THAT afph because of the gusts or roll for it the next turn?

Actually happened yesterday. thought of this thread.

Thanks for the help
 

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Gusts are rolled. In prep, a vehicle is burned in bypass of a building. Does the blaze automatically spread to the same hex terrain in THAT afph because of the gusts or roll for it the next turn?
Per A25.651 the Blaze automatically spreads per B25.6. Per B25.6 spreading can only occur in the turn after it was created. I say that the blaze cannot spread that turn. The "automatic" overrides the spreading DR, but I believe that it does not override the pre-condition that the blaze has to exist at the time gusts were rolled.

JR
 
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