(B23.423) Light Mortars

Commissar Piotr

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Evening Gentlemen

I have to strongly disagree with the inclusion of Crews for the SWs mentioned earlier as that would only lead to very weird usage of the crews added and would also make the game more counter-intensive.
I will not go into a long discussion on this, I have just seen it used in very gamey ways in scenarios featuring Crews instead of Squads/HSs. If that is not realistic I do not really care as ASL is not realistic, it is a game.
 

CPRad

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RE:ASL & lt mtr

Thanks to everyone that replied to my quest for an answer. Sometimes my attempt to write a quick and to the point post miss their mark.

I hate gamey techniques and will never knowingly use them when playing ASL. Although I thought allowing HS/crews to appear in scenarios to man the tubes or other SW was a good idea, I can see their potential improper usage.

The use of the word clumsy in my last post was a poor attempt at asking how in ASL terms, what would be the best time to use one squad with two mtrs. My rookie attempt at seeking to apply real life historical explainations was just one avenue I thought would help me to better understand the rules.

I've seen from the previous posts that HS are better but since ASL allows a squad to fire two mtrs I was just wondering what were the advantages for doing so?


Thanks guys....
 

da priest

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CPRad said:
edited text ....

I agree with the about.
Well, them's fighting words. :rifle:

The inclusion of the "fireteam" concept by crews, is not in ASL, maybe some other game, but not ASL. You want a variant? :kotz: Well the other games are variants, but if you publish a scenario pack with "variant" ASL rules 'cause you like'em, better label it as such, so the old guard and newbies that want to play ASL can avoid it. The past lack of success for this variant does not portend well for your endeavor. :dead:


CPRad said:
I'm trying to understand the military principle of firing a mtr. I can't see the reasoning for a squad of say 10 guys not being able to fire two tubes on target at the same time.

Can someone explan why in ASL mtr are so weak or clumsy to operate?
Ah! continued Realizm arguement... :rolleyes:

CPRad said:
Why do we have to roll two TH# and loose the acq ?

Thanks.
Mtrs are as effective as the Rules want them to be, and the Rules will not be changed. :ar15:

To the barricades my comrades, the Variantistas are in the streets again!!! :nofear:
 

Chas Argent

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A light mortar with a RoF of 3 is murder vs units in Woods; not even that bad against armor, either...
 

WaterRabbit

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da priest said:
The inclusion of the "fireteam" concept by crews, is not in ASL, maybe some other game, but not ASL. You want a variant? :kotz: Well the other games are variants, but if you publish a scenario pack with "variant" ASL rules 'cause you like'em, better label it as such, so the old guard and newbies that want to play ASL can avoid it. The past lack of success for this variant does not portend well for your endeavor. :dead:
Not in ASL ?
You mean like Red Barricades, Russian RG I7 & I8 or German RG I4?
Or perhaps KGP American RG I4 (using HS) or German RG HW1?
OR perhaps you meant ABTF British RG I5 or German RG I5?
Not to mention such SW teams in OWHS, and I haven't even mentioned third party products.

Yeah, dedicated HW teams are not part of ASL. :rolleyes: Of course, none of the old guard play any of these "variants" because they are not "ASL". These obviously did not succeed, so I guess you're right about this. :confused:

Commissar Piotr said:
I have just seen it used in very gamey ways in scenarios featuring Crews instead of Squads/HSs.
There are 24 tactics listed in the "The Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze v2.0", what sleaze you can squeeze out of a 127 crew is faily minimal. I guess you don't play much PTO either, since this is how the Japanese operate their SW. I guess you feel that the Japanese use of crews to too gamey as well. :cheeky:
 

da priest

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WaterRabbit said:
Not in ASL ?
Not what you were proselytizing. You didn't limit your variant to just HW teams or MOL-P teams or MG sections..no you wanted it for all gangs, regular platoons etc...you lose. :cheeky:

WaterRabbit said:
You mean like Red Barricades, Russian RG I7 & I8 or German RG I4?
Or perhaps KGP American RG I4 (using HS) or German RG HW1?
OR perhaps you meant ABTF British RG I5 or German RG I5?
Good try, no cigar, ALL are either HW teams or MOL-P teams or MG sections, now if your scenario is Amis wander into contact with a HW's unit of the evil Nasi Horde--then a a use of crews for the Germans would be understandable, but not for the AMis. :devil:

WaterRabbit said:
Not to mention such SW teams in OWHS, and I haven't even mentioned third party products.
Love it when a plan comes together, HOB has dropped SW crews like a hot rock..doesn't sell...chuckle, laugh.... :devil:

WaterRabbit said:
Yeah, dedicated HW teams are not part of ASL.
:

Well, ya'll would have a point if we had jest been talkin' about HW teams, but then I wouldn't have rushed to the barricades. :dead:
 

WaterRabbit

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da priest said:
Not what you were proselytizing. You didn't limit your variant to just HW teams or MOL-P teams or MG sections..no you wanted it for all gangs, regular platoons etc...you lose. :cheeky:
You have misunderstood me (and from your tone probably on purpose). First off, I leave the proselytizing to you -- da Priest. :) The limit of my discussion was in regard to HW platoons assigned to Companies. I have never advocated the concept of fire teams – that was your contribution to the discussion.

In general, fire teams don’t make sense within the timeframe (roughly 1920-1955) that ASL can simulate. Fire teams are predicated upon the use of assault rifles/GPMGs/SAWs.

If you examine the TO&E of nationalities within the given timeframe, you don’t really see HWs assigned to regular rifle squads -- not for tactical reason, not for supply and logistical reasons, not for C^2 reasons, and not for training reasons. They are usually assigned to HW platoons/squads/teams, but not in every case.

da priest said:
Good try, no cigar, ALL are either HW teams or MOL-P teams or MG sections, now if your scenario is Amis wander into contact with a HW's unit of the evil Nasi Horde--then a a use of crews for the Germans would be understandable, but not for the AMis. :devil:
I made no statement to the contrary, this was exactly the point I was making. Practically all of the historical games use HS/crews to represent HW teams. What I am saying is that scenario/campaign designers should take these considerations into account – a “change”, by the way, that has no rules implications what-so-ever and is more widespread than you give it credit for. (Which, btw, was the point of my mockery. :p )

da priest said:
Love it when a plan comes together, HOB has dropped SW crews like a hot rock..doesn't sell...chuckle, laugh.... :devil:
Do you actually have something to back this up ? This smells like cow manure to me. Can you prove that their products that don’t sell is because of SW crews? I am willing to bet that this is a 3rd or 4th order consideration, at best, in the purchase decision.

da priest said:
Well, ya'll would have a point if we had jest been talkin' about HW teams, but then I wouldn't have rushed to the barricades. :dead:
I don’t see how you could have interpreted this any other way. The sole foray into “proselytizing” is advocating the use of crews and rule G1.611 to better represent the tactical doctrine of the day. Whether the crew should be a 127 or a 228 would depend upon the character of the Company. But really, I am fine with using HSs. As far as “variants” go, this one is fairly small – it’s not like the IIFT. :D Also, it is not “my variant”; it has been played with for over 10 years in one form or another.

Again, the point I was trying to make (before you misinterpreted it way off topic) was that the use of half-squads to man MTRs and other HWs is not doing an end run around nationality characteristics.
 

da priest

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>Do you actually have something to back this up ? This smells like cow manure to me.

Haven't been around here too long have ya. Steve D. will fill ya in if ya want to ask.. :)

Nice to see ya coming around to the Catholic point of view tho on those pesky crew SW things.. :devil:
 

Legion

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Having just seen one of the 50mm German Lt Mtr's in Arnhem i must admit i am amazed that they could be considered 5PP of SW!

The only justification i can find is that you had to bring along a truck full of ammo just to do some damage. They were TINY!
 

CPRad

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RE:A little humor

Hey WaterRabbit

don't take da priest to seriously .... you know he just received his commission to 2LT and its gone to his head. : -)
 

da priest

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CPRad said:
Hey WaterRabbit

don't take da priest to seriously .... you know he just received his commission to 2LT and its gone to his head. : -)
Yep, a demotion, must post, must get rid of butter bar, must POST!!!! :argh:
 

Carl

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Legion said:
Having just seen one of the 50mm German Lt Mtr's in Arnhem i must admit i am amazed that they could be considered 5PP of SW!

The only justification i can find is that you had to bring along a truck full of ammo just to do some damage. They were TINY!
Good point. I thought the U.S. 60 mm mortar was a lot heavier than the German 50 mm mortar. But then I haven't seen the Russian lt mortar as compared to the other two. The German lt mtr as 5 pp may have been one of those 4.5 PP items where ya gotta fit it into the game model of either 4 or 5 and the designer chose 5. Works for me.

Come to think of it, does the German 50 mm mortar break down into component pieces like the U.S. 60 mm mortar? If not, then it could be that the 5 PP is based on the group not being able to move faster than the slowest guy.

Carl
 

Carl

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da priest said:
The past lack of success for this variant does not portend well for your endeavor.
"Endeavor"? I haven't seen where anyone is crusading here. As a variant, it seems to work. So no harm in scenario designers expressing artistic license by including HS or crews for their SW in their scenarios. I wouldn't recommend a backfit to any particular scenario, though. Self-rallying SW crews would severely unbalance some scenarios ... especially those involving a side with leadership challenges!

da priest said:
Mtrs are as effective as the Rules want them to be, and the Rules will not be changed.
Luckily, we're all a lot smarter than to think the answer to a basis query is the rule itself. I like the thought that ASL is a game and not a religion (and am grateful that the individuals in MMP are thinking along the same lines ... adding for them that it's a business.)

Carl
 
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