B23.211; B23.9; B24.; and B25.66

BattleSchool

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B23.211 LUMBERYARD: ...A lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except for Rout (A10.51), Rally (A10.61), Victory Conditions (A26), [errata included] and EC DRM for Kindling/Spreading (25.5) purposes, the ability to fire mortars and AA Guns therefrom, and the hex may not be OVR by vehicles. Vehicles may enter a lumberyard only via Bypass [EXC: motorcycles may be pushed]. Paths never exist through a lumberyard.
1a. May a lumberyard be fortified?

1b. If so, may a dm 76-82mm MTR enter such a Location during play and thereafter be assembled in/fired from this hex? Would fire at Aerial targets also be permitted from such a hex?

2. Is a burning lumberyard susceptible to collapse (B25.66)?

3a. Can a lumberyard be rubbled per B24.11?

3b. If so, may a rubbled/non-rubbled lumberyard be cleared per B24.71 in order to create a Trail Break?

B23.91 ...Only buildings can be fortified, and only by SSR or DYO purchase.
B23.93 GUNS: ...Any type/target size of Gun may set up in the ground level of a Fortified Building but may not fire at Aerial targets or use Indirect Fire. No ⅝" weapon counter may be moved into a Fortified Building during play.
B24.1 Rubble represents shattered remnants of a building and is represented by a ⅝" rubble counter which is brown if the building was wooden, or gray if it was stone. A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building [EXC: for Rubble Clearance purposes; 24.71].
B24.11 CREATION: Any HE (only) attack ≥ 70mm (or HEAT attack) against a building hex with an Original IFT DR which causes a KIA on the appropriate IFT column if reduced for Area Target Type, Harassing Fire, or Barrage result causes structural damage which may possibly cause the affected building level in that hex to collapse and be replaced by a rubble counter (see also Fire Collapse; 25.66).
B24.71 RUBBLE: Fallen rubble may be partially negated from any non-building hex (i.e., one not containing a building depiction—even if completely rubbled) by any unpinned, Good Order Infantry MMC/bulldozer in the rubble hex by rolling ≤ 2 on a Rubble Clearance DR at the end of their CCPh.
B25.66 COLLAPSE: A building Location(s) (determined by Random Selection) in which a Blaze exists (and all levels above it) will collapse (24.12) into burning rubble on an Original Wind Change DR of 12.
 

Mister T

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I had the same type of query a while ago and was told:

"A lumberyard is a lumber yard".

Feel free to infer what you like from that :rolleyes:
 

Brian W

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I had the same type of query a while ago and was told:

"A lumberyard is a lumber yard".

Feel free to infer what you like from that :rolleyes:
B23.211 says that a Lumber Yard is treated as a Single Story House except for . . . but we know that that is not accurate. So, roll a die for it and move on.
 

BattleSchool

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A lumberyard is not treated as a wooden Single Story House; rather it "is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except..."

Yet, unlike a fortified, stone, Single-Story House, a lumberyard hex (according to B23.211) is impregnable to AFV entry. Or is it?

May a dozer (armored or otherwise) attempt to rubble a lumberyard?

G15.25 vs SINGLE-STORY HOUSE: Any non-TI Mobile dozer may attempt to rubble a Single-Story House (B23.21) that contains no (other) friendly unit.
 
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apbills

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1a. No. It is a Lumberyard, not a Building.
1b. NA
2. No, since it is a Lumberyard Location, not a Building Location
3.a. No, is a lumberyard hex a building hex?
3b. NA
 

Robin Reeve

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This reminds me of the discussion about Bamboo making (or not) adjacent Marsh be Swamp.
I would consider that any rule pertaining to a Single Wooden Building in itself - i.e. not in its relation with other terrains - should apply to a Lumberyard.
Now the Fortified building scratches my idea of reality about lumberyards.
Rubble, however, if one thinks of a heap of wooden beams, many of them partially shredded, is conceivable for a destroyed lumberyard.
 

BattleSchool

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The bamboo-swamp question was different in a number of respects. Bamboo, for example, rates its own section in chapter G, while a lumberyard is not only lumped into the section on buildings, it is also tucked, as a subsection, inside the rules for a Single Story House. Although this was likely done in an effort to keep the rules as succinct as possible, the placement of lumberyard in section B23 creates other problems. Secondly, the rules are explicit in stating that "a lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except" as stated otherwise in B23.211.

From a common sense point of view, it's hard to visualize a fortified lumberyard. In fact, B23.91 states that only buildings can be fortified.

Okay. So maybe a lumberyard is not a building. Does this mean that backblast is NA when firing PF/PFk, BAZ, and PSK from a lumberyard hex?

Or does backblast apply? If it does apply, then surely we must conclude that a lumberyard is a "building" for the purposes of C13.8.
C13.8 BACKBLAST: Due to the attendant backblast of these weapons, a PF/PFk, BAZ, PSK, or RCL may not be fired from inside a vehicle, rubble, pillbox, cave, sewer, or building [EXC: Factory and rooftop] without a Desperation (13.81) penalty.
How about concealment terrain? The Terrain Chart lists such infrequent terrain types as Vineyard and Cactus Patch in red, but no listing for lumberyard. Is lumberyard concealment terrain? The index is unhelpful. Could it be that a lumberyard is also a (wooden) building for concealment purposes? If lumberyard is not supposed to be concealment terrain, how would we know?
INDEX Concealment Terrain (bamboo, bocage, broken ground, brush, building, cactus patch, cave, cave complex, dense jungle, grain [in-season], hut, kunai, light jungle, marsh, olive grove, orchard, paddy [in-season], palm debris, palm trees, rubble, scrub, swamp, vineyard, woods)
That's two cases where the rules lead us to draw our own conclusions about the nature of a lumberyard. Both cases appear to treat a lumberyard as a building. However, B23.211 doesn't say that a lumberyard is identical to a building; it says that it's identical to a wooden Single Story House. But a wooden Single Story House is a building. Moreover, neither a lumberyard nor a Single Story House (wooden or otherwise) is listed on the Terrain Chart. Nor do they appear in the list of concealment terrain found in the index. Presumably both come under the umbrella term "building," and in some cases share the more specific term "wooden-building."

So who's to say that a lumberyard would not collapse/rubble just like a wooden building would, like a wooden Single Story House would? Is there anything in the rules to indicate otherwise? Is there an exception for lumberyard in B24, or B25, like there is for rooftop in C13.8?

Where is the Kindling Number for a Lumberyard listed? How about the Spreading Fire DR? Is a lumberyard a building for these purposes too? How are we to know when the term (wooden) building doesn't include lumberyard in its meaning? By noting an exception, as in the case of C13.8?

It also seems strange that a dozer would be unable to create a TB through a lumberyard with or without rubbling it. Contrary to G15.25, which specifically uses the term "Single Story House," B23.211 suggests that a dozer cannot enter a lumberyard at all because it is a vehicle. Why a lumberyard would be virtually indestructible and impregnable cannot be explained away as easily as the general "permanence" of walls and hedges--a concession to ease of play.

The last sentence of B23.211 is odd too. Why bother to tell us that paths never exist through a lumberyard? Were the authors on to Tuomo all those years ago? Did some joker try to Clear a Path (G2.7) during a play test of some long-forgotten scenario? Or was the rule supposed to prohibit a TB through a lumberyard hex?

Suffice it to say that while a lumberyard is a lumberyard, it's also a lot like a (wooden) building. How much so remains unclear.
 
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Doug Leslie

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Sorry to resurrect this thread. I am about to embark on J83 Bloody Nose where non-crew Russian MMC must set up in buildings. There are a couple of lumberyards that look like decent starting locations. Do they count as buildings?
 

Robin Reeve

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Lumberyards are buildings for setup instructions : B23.211 doesn't list setup among the exceptions.
B23.211 ... a lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except for Rout (A10.51), Rally (A10.61), Victory Conditions (A26), and EC DRM for Kindling/Spreading (25.5) purposes, the ability to fire mortars and AA Guns therefrom, and the hex may not be OVR by vehicles.
 

Doug Leslie

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Lumberyards are buildings for setup instructions : B23.211 doesn't list setup among the exceptions.
So by that logic, does every rule applying to a wooden building (eg backblast, fortification etc) apply to a lumberyard unless specifically excepted?
 

BattleSchool

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Sorry to resurrect this thread. I am about to embark on J83 Bloody Nose where non-crew Russian MMC must set up in buildings. There are a couple of lumberyards that look like decent starting locations. Do they count as buildings?
I'd say yes because "a lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except" as stated otherwise in B23.211.

You could ask the designer. Randy is an active player, and I think he still reads the GS forums.

But, I'm thinking the intent is to have the spare Infantry crews man those light mortars. And given that crews do not have to set up in buildings (SSR 4), I think you have your answer for this scenario.
 

Doug Leslie

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I'd say yes because "a lumberyard is considered identical to a wooden Single Story House in all respects except" as stated otherwise in B23.211.

You could ask the designer. Randy is an active player, and I think he still reads the GS forums.

But, I'm thinking the intent is to have the spare Infantry crews man those light mortars. And given that crews do not have to set up in buildings (SSR 4), I think you have your answer for this scenario.
It sure looks that way but I was curious to see whether there might be other options.
 
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