B20.41 and 20.46 Dry Streams : vehicle exit - limits to: "considered a gully"...

[Robin Reeve]

I remain confused by some questions about Dry streams.

B20.41 DRY: If a stream is dry, it does not exist; rather, it is considered a gully for all purposes, and all marsh hexes on the same board are considered mudflats.

20.46 VEHICLES: Vehicles transit a stream hex as if it were a gully, regardless of water depth [EXC: Flooded]. All vehicles leaving a stream hex via a higher elevation hexside are subject to Bog in that stream hex. Motorcycles may not drive into a deep stream. Wrecks do not appear in a flooded stream.

A Dry stream "does not exist", but "Dry" is still listed as a depth in the B20.4 paragraph.

So, first question : is a vehicle exiting a Dry stream still subject to Bog (even though a dry stream is considered a "gully for all purposes") ?

Other question :

View attachment 37044

Hexes 47C5 and F8 are not Stream hexes after B20.1 definition.
Do they become stream hexes when the stream is dry (by application of the gully rules - cf B19.1 ... Unlike a stream (even if dry), the gully symbol need only appear in a hex for it to be considered a gully hex.)?
My reading is that the "even dry" mention in the gully rules clearly says that 47C5 and F8 never become anything else than open ground.
Got it right?

 

[Vinnie]

My take. No big check since it is a gully for all purposes.

The hexes are not gullies since they ere never stream hexes to he changed into gullies. They are not gully hexes by artwork without the change so they remain not gully hexes.

 

[Larry]

I read "blue line enclosed in a layered white, brown, and dark green background which extends through two hexsides" as referring to any of the 4 colors to make a stream hex -- which would include C5 and F8.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I read "blue line enclosed in a layered white, brown, and dark green background which extends through two hexsides" as referring to any of the 4 colors to make a stream hex -- which would include C5 and F8.

"which extends through two hexsides" excludes them...

 

[jrv]

I read "blue line enclosed in a layered white, brown, and dark green background which extends through two hexsides" as referring to any of the 4 colors to make a stream hex -- which would include C5 and F8.

The VASL boards shown in the thread correct an issue with the actual boards. With earlier boards, the stream clearly enters one hexside and the little wispy tendrils at the end of a stream extend across a second hexside with all four colors. My copy of 32V4, both original and starter-kit-style reprint, is a very nice example. In (the original) 47C5 and 47F8, my old original boards just barely have a bit of dark background going across a second hexside, and on my starter-kit-style reprints, there's no extension across a second hexside at all. So technically 47C5 and 47F8 are not stream hexes because the stream only crosses one hexside, the obvious one. No one in their right mind plays it that way because it is obvious that a stream is intended, but the artwork on board 47 does not meet the definition in the rule.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

This is a point I raised with Chas when the map bundle first came out. I was told he'd discussed it with perry and did not think there was a problem.

 

[jrv]

This is a point I raised with Chas when the map bundle first came out. I was told he'd discussed it with perry and did not think there was a problem.

And you can't fix this by changing the rules, because if for instance you said any hex with blue, white, brown and dark green is a stream, then all of those wispy tendrils that are drawn on the other boards become stream hexes. I'm disappointed MMP didn't take the opportunity to repair this, minor though it is, as it would have been very simple.

JR

 

[horseshoe]

And you can't fix this by changing the rules, because if for instance you said any hex with blue, white, brown and dark green is a stream, then all of those wispy tendrils that are drawn on the other boards become stream hexes. I'm disappointed MMP didn't take the opportunity to repair this, minor though it is, as it would have been very simple.

JR

Has anybody ever really played the end hexes WEREN'T stream hexes.:freak: I mean come on its obviously intended to be a stream hex. Ive never played it any other way.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Has anybody ever really played the end hexes WEREN'T stream hexes.:freak: I mean come on its obviously intended to be a stream hex. Ive never played it any other way.

I tend to think like you, but I now adapt to the rules.
In a tourney, a decision had to be taken on the question - and I wonder if all designers take the rule as it is in account.
I don't like the fact that one can mix up the way gullies and streams are drawn - and having that big part of a stream in a hex, which finally is OG, is for the least confusing.

 

[jrv]

I tend to think like you, but I now adapt to the rules.
In a tourney, a decision had to be taken on the question - and I wonder if all designers take the rule as it is in account.
I don't like the fact that one can mix up the way gullies and streams are drawn - and having that big part of a stream in a hex, which finally is OG, is for the least confusing.

I don't believe 47C5 and 47F8 meet the definition of gully either, because they are not "a thin, meandering black line enclosed in a light brown background which, in turn, is enclosed in a dark green background." There is no black, and there is blue and white. Following the rules very literally, 47C5 and 47F8 are undefined terrain. Hardly anyone notices, fewer care, and no one plays that way.

JR

 

[Robin Reeve]

I don't believe 47C5 and 47F8 meet the definition of gully either, because they are not "a thin, meandering black line enclosed in a light brown background which, in turn, is enclosed in a dark green background." There is no black, and there is blue and white. Following the rules very literally, 47C5 and 47F8 are undefined terrain.

I was not saying that 47C5 and F8 were gullies.
But a gully which finishes in a hex (i.e. only enters it through one hexside) exists, whilst a stream does not.

Hardly anyone notices, fewer care, and no one plays that way.

The problem has already been evoked over here.
It can be a real problem during a tourney.
It also can make quite a difference when it comes to moving around a stream, so I personally always have a hesitation about how to play those hexes.

 

[jrv]

I was not saying that 47C5 and F8 were gullies.
The problem has already been evoked over here.
It can be a real problem during a tourney.
It also can make quite a difference when it comes to moving around a stream, so I personally always have a hesitation about how to play those hexes.

Given that 47C5 and 47F8 don't fully meet the definition of any terrain type, I don't see how it could be an issue. If your opponent argues that they are not streams, you argue that they are not gullies either. What's his next move? Open Ground ("there are many types of Open Ground hexes" [B1.1])? If you are at a tournament, get the tournament director over and he will rule for stream. If you are not at a tournament, you may want to see if anyone is starting a game of "Settlers of Catan" that you can join.

JR

 

[Robin Reeve]

Given that 47C5 and 47F8 don't fully meet the definition of any terrain type, I don't see how it could be an issue. If your opponent argues that they are not streams, you argue that they are not gullies either. What's his next move? Open Ground ("there are many types of Open Ground hexes" [B1.1])? If you are at a tournament, get the tournament director over and he will rule for stream.

47C5 and 47F8 are OG.
What I said about gullies was in link with the rules, not those hexes.

If you are not at a tournament, you may want to see if anyone is starting a game of "Settlers of Catan" that you can join.

So being obnoxious is the way you go...
Take your meds and have a nice time with your wife (or your boyfriend).

 

[Robin Reeve]

Now, coming back to the rules topic.
B19.1 says "Unlike a stream (even if dry), the gully symbol need only appear in a hex for it to be considered a gully hex."
My point simply is that such a difference could have been avoided.

And, sorry, but I try to play ASL after the rules.

 

[Vinnie]

I did end up playing it like this once in a Swedish volunteers scenario where the streams were dry. After discussion with my opponent we agreed that the stream "end hex" was open ground.

 

[jrv]

I did end up playing it like this once in a Swedish volunteers scenario where the streams were dry. After discussion with my opponent we agreed that the stream "end hex" was open ground.

I'm not clear that position is supported by the rules. But if you and your opponent agree, by all means, game on.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

A stream is defined quite clearly and the board we were playing on, while a VASL board was clear that the stream spread into the hex but not through it. There was no possibility of the stream crossing more than one hexside son y definition it was not a stream hex. By SSR all stream hexes were gullies since this was not a stream hex as defined by the rules it could not be a gully either.

 

[Tom Nelson]

Not that it matters, but I agree with JR. A spade is a spade. If it looks like a stream hex, it is stream hex. Otherwise, why would the artwork simply not cut off the stream or gully after a slight penetration of the next hexside, indicating that, indeed, it is open ground. Tim

 

[Robin Reeve]

Not that it matters, but I agree with JR. A spade is a spade. If it looks like a stream hex, it is stream hex. Otherwise, why would the artwork simply not cut off the stream or gully after a slight penetration of the next hexside, indicating that, indeed, it is open ground. Tim

i. e. if streams followed the gully definition, from the graphical perspective, it would be less confusing.