B13.41 VCA change on a woods-road hex

[Jon]

[I've =never= seen a knowledgeable player call in play "4 MP" re such a VCA change. I'm kinda sure I would've by now were 4 MP correct.]

Given rules-as-writ in the eASLRB, the cost is =not= 4 MP, but 2 -- I see no reading of the ASLRB making it 4 MP.

Scott asks, What is the source of this Q&A? I find it in ASL_QA_Total.pdf (v29-v22-v22) PDF-page 75.

I infer from my reading there that this is a Q&A on the Pegasus Bridge "Combination Terrain" HASL rules, =not= a query re the general rules.

IOW, unless that map fragment in the OP is from PB, the Q&A is NA re the OP. [And if the OP =is= a PB Q, I still think the Q&A has problems.]

That, or some other misunderstanding re this seemingly ASLRB-defying Q&A.

The image in my OP is from the Crossing the Moro map. That's what we were playing this week when the question arose.
I find it ludicrous that the cost to change VCA if a vehicle is in woods to be 2MP, but it costs 4MP to change VCA in a woods-road if done across a non-road hexside, especially since the B13.31 EXC says a vehicle in a woods-road hex is always on the road unless beneath a partial trailbreak

Cheers
Jon

 

[Larry]

What is "across a non-road hexside" mean?



The Y20-W20 hexside is not a road hexside. Changing the VCA from Y20-W20-W21 to V20-W20-V20 costs 4 MP. Does V20-W20-V20 to Y20-U19-V20, keeping the road in the road within VCA cost 2? == according to Semenza's post of a PS.

 

[KenYoung]

What is "across a non-road hexside" mean?

That's the key to the first post.

To avoid the "changing a VCA across a non-road hexside" MP doubling penalty.

Must the CA before the change have a road hexside.

The CA after the change have a road hexside.

The CA before and after the change must have a road hexside.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Thank you @klasmalmstrom

 

[Doug Leslie]

That's the key to the first post.

To avoid the "changing a VCA across a non-road hexside" MP doubling penalty.

Must the CA before the change have a road hexside.

The CA after the change have a road hexside.

The CA before and after the change must have a road hexside.

If you look at the diagram attached to the original post, the AFV is in U20 with a VCA of V20/V21. If it changes its VCA to V21 U21, it is crossing a road hexside. The cost to do so is 1 MP or 2 MP depending on whether you wish to follow what appears to be the majority view on here or the answer given in the Q&A.

If the AFV moves into V21 without changing its VCA and now turns 1 hexspine anti-clockwise (to V20/W20), there is no road crossing the V21/W20 hexside so the cost to do so is either 2 MP or 4 MP depending on who you believe.

Personally, I can't understand the reasoning of the Q&A so I would go with the 1 MP/2 MP option.

 

[Wayne]

B13.41 and D2.11
...
Is the 2 MP cost to change the VCA in a woods location considered to be a 1 MP Penalty?
A. No. The “normal” VCA cost in woods is 2 MP per hexside.
...
Q 5.) From Q4 Vehicle is on the road in a wood road hex. If it is a penalty is that doubled to a 2 MP penalty (total cost of 3MP) for changing VCA to / from / through (aka; across) a hexside that does not contain a road hexside?
Changing VCA across a non-road hexside while on a woods-road I believe costs 4 MP. Normal cost 2 MP per D2.11, doubles to 4 MP per B13.41.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q 6.) from description in Q 5.) what does it cost for a VCA change across a non-road hexside in a woods road hex?
4 MP.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....Perry MMP

Per Perry's usual style, "I believe" does not sound too definitive to me.

If the Q&A is to stand, then ASLRB text change appears to be unavoidable. As writ now, D2.11 specs a "normal" cost. B13.41 doubles only "penalty" costs.

The klas link (thank you) dates this Q&A 20190306. Seems odd that no ASLRB text change in this regard has yet been made this 20220812 date today.

As I key this, the current eASLRB rev is "Version 2.1; 2/7/2022" [c.f. eASLRB page iii] -- so, there has been opportunity to make a change.

[I find no errata, either, on the MMP site (ASLRB_Errata_April_2021_A-K_W.pdf) in support of this klas-cited Q&A.]

Personally, I can't understand the reasoning of the Q&A so I would go with the 1 MP/2 MP option.

I agree but would like to see an official acknowledgement that this likely-correct reading is indeed officially correct.

Otherwise, potentially critical movement rate in some Woods-Road scenarios will be affected.

 

[semenza]

B13.41 Woods Road Vehicle Entry / VCA change D2.11

Q 1.) A vehicle crosses a Road hexside to enter a woods road hex (i.e.; driving on the road), using road rate, there is a wreck on the road, no other conditions apply. Is the cost 1 1/2 MP, 2 1/2 MP, or 4 1/2 MP? Assuming the vehicle is CE, the base MP cost is 1/2 MP. Per D2.14 this...

www.gamesquad.com

I knew I had sent some questions about this.

Could do with a follow up on a couple of them though.

Seth

 

[Stewart]

As Scott pointed out, there is no basis of doubling the doubled MP expenditure.

Reading it in context automatically HAS doubled the MP expense TO 2MP.

AND the biggest one...NO road is 2MP.
Tell me why THAT would be less of a difficult turn than when ON a road with minimal cover to slow the turning of the vehicle...

No sense in any state of mind.
Taking a Ft17 down a Forest road would've kept the ENTIRE Division out of the war due to the Movement costs.

 

[jimfer]

Sometime the rules set us up for Saturday mornings...

 

[von Marwitz]

If the Q&A is to stand, then ASLRB text change appears to be unavoidable. As writ now, D2.11 specs a "normal" cost. B13.41 doubles only "penalty" costs.

The klas link (thank you) dates this Q&A 20190306. Seems odd that no ASLRB text change in this regard has yet been made this 20220812 date today.

I remembered that this Q&A was not around for a long time.

Then (and now) I find that even very experienced players are surprised but the "turning cost" of 4MP as per the Q&A. At least, this is an indication that even many (if not most) grognards have played the "turning cost" as 2MP. Which is somewhat telling.

I guess, that if the new "standard" would be set to 4MP, this would have a significant impact on quite a number of scenarios, of which I am pretty sure that they have been playtested and played using the 2MP cost.
I also reckon, that many players would quite decidedly dislike that new "standard". Count me among them...

Usually, I am an advocate of treating 'Perry Sez' as if they were an ASL rule. In this case, it would give me a stomach ache to do so. I'd jump at the proposal to make the 2MF the houserule. It is unfortunate, that the situation addressed by the Q&A turns up quite often in practice, which makes it kind of a burden to talk about the issue and agree on how to treat it.

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I guess, that if the new "standard" would be set to 4MP, this would have a significant impact on quite a number of scenarios, of which I am pretty sure that they have been playtested and played using the 2MP cost.

I am not so sure that would be that case - how often does one turn the VCA while on a woods-road across a non-road hexside anyway?

 

[Wayne]

I am not so sure that would be that case - how often does one turn the VCA while on a woods-road across a non-road hexside anyway?

That's a fair question.

Per my quick glance, on boards 19, 32, 34, 36, 42, 47, 50, 75, SK alpha-board O, HASL map DN. 10x, plus whatever I've missed, re official products.

[I'll let someone else count affected official scenarios. Arguably not many. Arguably too many. Opinion will vary.]

This moment the Q&A is kinda-clearly out-of-line re the rules (reasons above). That deserves correcting, IMO, whichever way it's fixed.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There will undoubtedly be some/many scernarios with board that have woods-road. However, I find it a tab unlikely that scenarios' balance in very many of these depends on the VCA cost of vehicle moving along those woods-road.

I have also noted that the rules - in places uses the term "penalty" when it actually seems to mean "MP cost". Why the term "penalty" was used one can only speculate, but it does make me wonder if it has any "special" meaning in the rule in question. As always, ymmv.

 

[von Marwitz]

There willundoubtedly be some/many scernarios with board that have woods-road. However, I find it a tab unlikely that scenarios' balance in very many of these depends on the VCA cost of vehicle moving along those woods-road.

This could be an issue in scenarios where AFV have to move through woods along roads with not many alternatives. This situation is not so rare IMHO.

The effect would most likely be that it would cost these AFV an extra turn. Having or not having an extra MPh can make quite a difference, especially for scenarios with Exit VP and/or with vehicles that are slow (i.e. have not many MP).

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Granted I am only guessing, but I still don't think it's a big issue. Plus, who knows how these potentially affected scenarios have been played/playtested anyway. Add in the fact that there so many factors affecting balance.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Granted I am only guessing, but I still don't think it's a big issue. Plus, who knows how these potentially affected scenarios have been played/playtested anyway. Add in the fact that there so many factors affecting balance.

The problem is that there is a Q&A which is at odds with how many experienced players understand the rules. If a vehicle in a woods/road hex is considered to be on the road, why does it cost more than one MP to change VCA across a road hexside? I think that this is where the problem stems from.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The problem is that there is a Q&A which is at odds with how many experienced players understand the rules. If a vehicle in a woods/road hex is considered to be on the road, why does it cost more than one MP to change CAll across a road hexside? I think that this is where the problem stems from.

I guess it depends on how one interprets D2.11:
"VCA can be changed only at the cost of one MP per hexspine change (two MP per hexspine change if actually in [not in bypass of] a building/woods/rubble or any combination thereof)."

Does it exclude a woods-road, even if not specifically mentioned?, or is being on a woods-road akin to "in woods or any combination thereof"?

I've look for examples and Q&A, but I have not found any....

 

[Larry]

I suspect that most players change VCA in a woods-road hex while on the road for 1 MP because they are not "in the woods." To get into the woods, the vehicle must enter the woods, place a trailbreak, and may now exit a non-road hexside.

A vehicle that is not on a road changes VCA and must do so across a non-road hexside (because there is no road). Is that always 4 MP? Askling for a friend.

 

[von Marwitz]

The problem is that there is a Q&A which is at odds with how many experienced players understand the rules.

This is exactly the point.

von Marwitz

 

[Wayne]

A vehicle that is not on a road changes VCA and must do so across a non-road hexside (because there is no road). Is that always 4 MP? Asking for a friend.

No. It's just 2 (and a Bog check).

D2.11 VCA CHANGES: ...VCA can be changed only at the cost of ... (two MP per hexspine change if actually in [not in bypass of] a ...woods... VCA changes (if not on a road) ... require a Bog Check (8.2).

{Are you "actually in" Woods while on a Woods Road Road? (I'd think No.)
Why does "[not in bypass of]" not mention on a Road as an exception? (Intended, or oversight?)}

B13.41 VEHICLES: ... All MP penalties for ... changing a VCA across a non-road hexside [while on a Road is implied], are doubled while in a woods hex.

So, while off-Roading in the woods, a VCA change is 2MP (plus Bog check). On a wooded Road instead, no Bog check, but 4 MP (?!) per the questionable Q&A.

That's kinda the problem w/the Q&A. It doesn't seem right.

Granted I am only guessing, but I still don't think it's a big issue. Plus, who knows how these potentially affected scenarios have been played/playtested anyway. Add in the fact that there so many factors affecting balance.

I have to agree. I don't like it, but IMO (now) it's just not the scenario-library-buster issue I initially supposed it might be.

[Maybe the number of cases where that Q&A-mandated 4MP toll might be exacted in actual play are so few as to (arguably) be valued as ASL color.]

That said, I'm curious to know how this FF18 hairpin curve route into/out-of town was MP-counted during Dinant playtesting. (Haven't play Dinant, so IDK if it matters.)