B13.41 VCA change on a woods-road hex

[Jon]

Hi



See above image. The BU German AFV is moving along the road. It enters V21 for 1MP. Its VCA is now at W20-W21.
It then changes VCA one spine counter-clockwise, so that its VCA moves to V20-W20. What is the MP cost for this VCA change?

I believe it is 2MP, as per B13.41 "All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle, and/or for changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex." In above example the AFV has changed its VCA across the V21-W20 hexside which is a non-road hexside. So the normal 1 MP for a VCA change is doubled to 2MP.

My esteemed opponent says the cost is only 1MP as the AFV is on a road and where it finishes its VCA change (VCA V20-W20) is a road hexside.

Who is correct?

Cheers
Jon

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I think you are right, 2MP, per B13.41. That VCA change is along (across) the hexside that goes from from vertex V21-W20-W21 to V21-V20-W20, which is not a road hexside.

 

[Doug Leslie]

It is actually 4 MP to change VCA across a non- road woods/road hexside. Two for the woods/road doubled to 4 for the non-road hexside.

 

[Larry]

It is actually 4 MP to change VCA across a non- road woods/road hexside. Two for the woods/road doubled to 4 for the non-road hexside.

Any non-road hexside, on a road or not, is doubled.

changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex.

The condition of changing VCA in the woods is not listed separately, but just once across a non-road hexside. A non-woods-road hex has no road hexsides, so it is 2. A woods-road hex adds the exception to the rule. This hex has a wicked hairpin turn, requiring 2 MP.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Any non-road hexside, on a road or not, is doubled.

The condition of changing VCA in the woods is not listed separately, but just once across a non-road hexside. A non-woods-road hex has no road hexsides, so it is 2. A woods-road hex adds the exception to the rule. This hex has a wicked hairpin turn, requiring 2 MP.

Per this Q&A, the MP cost is definitely 4 MP.

B13.41 & D2.11 A vehicle crosses a Road hexside to enter a woods road hex (i.e.; driving on the road), using road rate, there is a wreck on the road, no other conditions apply. Is the cost 1 1/2 MP, 2 1/2 MP, or 4 1/2 MP? A. Assuming the vehicle is CE, the base MP cost is 1/2 MP. Per D2.14 this is increase by 2 MP since using the road movement rate. These 2 MP are then doubled per B13.41: “All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle... ...are doubled while in a woods hex.” So, cost is 4 1/2 MP. Same premise as Q1. Is the MP penalty for the wreck—not doubled, doubled, or doubled twice (IOW- doubled for road and again for woods road) ? A. See above. Can a vehicle avoid the Doubled MP penalty for a woods road hex with a wreck on the road by not claiming / using the road rate while crossing a wood road hexside? A. Yes, but then it would be entering the woods at half MP and need to take a Bog Check. Is the 2 MP cost to change the VCA in a woods location considered to be a 1 MP Penalty? A. No. The “normal” VCA cost in woods is 2 MP per hexside. From Q4 Vehicle is on the road in a wood road hex. If it is a penalty is that doubled to a 2 MP penalty (total cost of 3MP) for changing VCA to / from / through (aka; across) a hexside that does not contain a road hexside? A. Changing VCA across a non-road hexside while on a woods-road costs 4 MP. Normal cost 2 MP per D2.11, doubles to 4 MP per B13.41. From description in Q5.) what does it cost for a VCA change across a non-road hexside in a woods road hex? A. 4 MP. Jim Bishop did an article about this situation on his blog a few months ago. Learning From My Mistakes: AFV and Woods-Road – The Bishop Says (jekl.com)

 

[bendizoid]

So basically the cost is doubled twice ? It does not say the cost is quadrupled. The rules say specifically the cost is 2 to change VCA cross a non-road hexside. Seems like when 1 is doubled it equals 2. Why would they write ‘2’ if they meant ‘4’?

 

[Doug Leslie]

So basically the cost is doubled twice ? It does not say the cost is quadrupled. The rules say specifically the cost is 2 to change VCA cross a non-road hexside.

So it would appear. For what it is worth, I find the Q&A to be very surprising but it seems to represent the law unless and until it is reconsidered. What is bizarre is that it seems to cost more to change VCA on a woods/road than if the vehicle is in woods without a road.

D2.11 VCA CHANGES: The Vehicular Covered Arc is the CA (C3.2) of a vehicle based on the front of that vehicle. During setup and movement, care must always be taken to ensure that the VCA is clearly defined (along one of the six hexspines of its currently occupied hex) as it expends MP to change its hex/VCA. VCA can be changed only at the cost of one MP per hexside changed (two MP per hexspine change if actually in [not in bypass of] a building/woods/rubble or any combination thereof). VCA changes (if not on a road) in difficult terrain (see Terrain Chart) require a Bog Check(D8.2). A vehicle must move within its current VCA as it enters each hex [EXC: Reverse Movement]. For a vehicle to move directly to a hex outside its current VCA it must first expend one MP per hexspine changed to change its VCA within its currently-occupied hex, or use Reverse Movement. The MP expenditure for a change of VCA within a vehicle's currently-occupied hex must be announced separately for each hexspine change so that the DEFENDER may intervene to Defensive First Fire at the target at that point, although this alone would not qualify the vehicle as a moving target (C.8). A VCA can also be changed following a successful Motion Attempt (2.401), as a result of firing outside its CA during any fire phase (other than its own MPh; C5.1), or at the end of any fire phase in which it is still eligible to fire a turret/bow-mounted weapon (3.12 and C3.22).

-So that is two MP to change VCA in a woods hex (no mention of a road).


B13.41 VEHICLES: Any vehicle may enter a woods hex without using Road or VBM by expending all of its movement capability (other than for starting [D2.12], stopping [D2.13], towing [C10.1] and even if using Minimum Move) to enter that hex and then making a Bog DR [EXC: Motorcycles must be pushed]. Such movement is possible even while moving in Reverse. Vehicles may also use this method to move off a road into the woods portion of their woods-road hex. All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle, and/or for changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex.

- Doubled to 4 MP unless changing across a road hexside.

This appears to mean that it will normally cost 4 MP to change CA in woods hexes (but not buildings/rubble). That doesn't look right to me.

Maybe someone should seek a clarification from MMP?

 

[Wayne]

So basically the cost is doubled twice ? It does not say the cost is quadrupled. The rules say specifically the cost is 2 to change VCA cross a non-road hexside.

D2.11 puts the (undoubled, normal for that terrain -- i.e. IN Woods, not in Bypass [and apparently irregardless of Road]) cost at 2.
If that's a penalty (reads to me like a normal cost) then B13.41 doubles that (once) to 4 MP.

D2.11 ... VCA can be changed only at the cost of one MP per hexspine change (two MP per hexspine change if actually in [not in bypass of] a building/woods/rubble or any combination thereof).

[Kinda debatable that a vehicle ON a Woods-Road is in fact IN a Woods (but it's clearly NOT a vehicle in Bypass, usually, so, Okay).]

B13.41 ... All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/ vehicle, and/or for changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex.

[IMO, the Q&A is technically incorrect, as B13.41 doubles only penalties, and D2.11 makes said VCA change a normal cost (not a penalty) for VCA change IN a Woods-Road terrain hex. I call the cited Q&A broken-as-writ but would be okay w/it if undrstood and agreed pre-game how the mechanics will be.]

I've played/playtested for years that a Woods-Road VCA change across a non-Road hexside is a 2 MP assessment. I suspect I've done that correctly given the rules as writ.

Maybe this cited Q&A foretells a rules change? Or maybe the cited Q&A is a bit of a goof. IDK.

 

[bendizoid]

So it would it appear. For what it is worth, I find the Q&A to be very surprising but it seems to represent the law unless and until it is reconsidered. What is bizarre is that it seems to cost more to change VCA on a woods/road than if the vehicle is in woods without a road.

D2.11 VCA CHANGES: The Vehicular Covered Arc is the CA (C3.2) of a vehicle based on the front of that vehicle. During setup and movement, care must always be taken to ensure that the VCA is clearly defined (along one of the six hexspines of its currently occupied hex) as it expends MP to change its hex/VCA. VCA can be changed only at the cost of one MP per hexside changed (two MP per hexspine change if actually in [not in bypass of] a building/woods/rubble or any combination thereof). VCA changes (if not on a road) in difficult terrain (see Terrain Chart) require a Bog Check(D8.2). A vehicle must move within its current VCA as it enters each hex [EXC: Reverse Movement]. For a vehicle to move directly to a hex outside its current VCA it must first expend one MP per hexspine changed to change its VCA within its currently-occupied hex, or use Reverse Movement. The MP expenditure for a change of VCA within a vehicle's currently-occupied hex must be announced separately for each hexspine change so that the DEFENDER may intervene to Defensive First Fire at the target at that point, although this alone would not qualify the vehicle as a moving target (C.8). A VCA can also be changed following a successful Motion Attempt (2.401), as a result of firing outside its CA during any fire phase (other than its own MPh; C5.1), or at the end of any fire phase in which it is still eligible to fire a turret/bow-mounted weapon (3.12 and C3.22).

-So that is two MP to change VCA in a woods hex (no mention of a road).


B13.41 VEHICLES: Any vehicle may enter a woods hex without using Road or VBM by expending all of its movement capability (other than for starting [D2.12], stopping [D2.13], towing [C10.1] and even if using Minimum Move) to enter that hex and then making a Bog DR [EXC: Motorcycles must be pushed]. Such movement is possible even while moving in Reverse. Vehicles may also use this method to move off a road into the woods portion of their woods-road hex. All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle, and/or for changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex.

- Doubled to 4 MP unless changing across a road hexside.

This appears to mean that it will normally cost 4 MP to change CA in woods hexes (but not buildings/rubble). That doesn't look right to me.

Maybe someone should seek a clarification from MMP?

Correct, it makes no sense. The vehicle is not in the woods, it’s on the road (B13.41 ...Vehicles May also use this method to move off a road into the woods portion of their woods-road hex.”. If there is a ‘woods portion’ then there must be a ‘road portion’ of a woods-road hex. The cost should be 2 so that’s how I play it.

Further, in D2.11 it says ...”(two MP per hexside change if actually in [not in bypass of] a building/woods/rubble...” therefore since it is not in the woods but the road portion the cost gets doubled from 1 to 2.

 

[Larry]

Jim's articles ... informative.

 

[Wayne]

W/respect for Jim's contributions and w/out disparagement: writers do make mistakes.

Ditto, re the Q&A writer.

 

[Tuomo]

It costs 1MP to enter the Woods along the Road, and then 15 minutes to fart around looking for the answer on how to do the VCA change. Depending on how fast you push cardboard, 15 minutes is approximately 287MP.

(yeah, the Q&A is clear, but I agree that the vehicle isn't in the Woods because it didn't pay to enter the woods, so it SHOULD only cost 2MP)

 

[Gordon]

I think the Germans trying to shove Panthers and King Tigers around the Ardennes in winter probably paid just about 287 MP per hex.

 

[apbills]

The question is really about how D2.11 and B13.41 actually play together.
D2.11 states that it costs "2MP" to change the VCA while "in a woods", with no exception for being on a road. So by this rule it is 2MP to change VCA in the woods hex regardless of if a road exists and regardless of whether you are on the road or not. You must also undergo a Bog Check, however, if you are on a road, you do not undergo the Bog Check.
The last sentence of B13.41 "All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle, and/or for changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex." does not distinguish between being on the road or in the woods portion of the hex. And parts of the rule paragraph apply to one or the other or both situations.

Clearly all woods hexes with no road have only "non-road hexsides", which means if D2.11 and B13.41 are cumulative (which is how the Q&A interprets it), it would normally be 4MP to change a VCA in a non-road woods hex (i.e., the 2MP in D2.11 doubled per B13.41).

As the question points out, the rule uses the term "penalties", not "normal cost". This works for a wreck/vehicle since the cost for entering the hex are increased due the their presence. It does not work clearly for VCA changes since a VCA change and its costs are separate and the additional cost for difficult terrain (i.e., in addition to normal) is 1MP. It is easy to interpret the additional cost as a "penalty". The Q&A makes errata to the sentence by changing the word "penalties" to "normal costs".

 

[ScottRomanowski]

The problem I have is fourfold. One, the EXC in B13.31 says a vehicle in a wood-road hex is always considered to be on the road unless beneath a partial TB counter.

Two, if the VCA change cost is doubled in D2.11 then doubled again in specific circumstances in B13.41, why didn't the authors simply say "4 MP [EXC: 2MP if across a woods-road hexside]" in B13.41/D2.11? They added and "if not on road" in the next sentence of D2.11?

Three, the doubling and doubling makes it cost more MP to change VCA across a non-road hexside on a road in woods than in a building/rubble without a road.

Four, the woods row of the terrain chart references note D, which says the MP penalty for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle or changing VCA are doubled, but the Notes column for woods has "If no road, VBM, or TB" which applies to the entire row. Note also that D only applies to fully-tracked vehicles in woods, which is obviously wrong!

Together, B13.41 and D2.11 can be taken to mean that the cost is 2 MP to change VCA across a non-road hexside or use a road to enter a woods-road Location with a vehicle/wreck. D2.11 says those cost 2MP, and B13.41 is saying that even if on a road in a woods hex, the doubling from 1 to 2 of D2.11 applies for wrecks/vehicles and if changing VCA across a non-road hexside.

I wish there was a source cited for that Q&A in in Klas's compilation because it might clarify things. As far as I can tell, it didn't appear in a General, Annual, Journal, or other official source.

 

[Doug Leslie]

The question is really about how D2.11 and B13.41 actually play together.
D2.11 states that it costs "2MP" to change the VCA while "in a woods", with no exception for being on a road. So by this rule it is 2MP to change VCA in the woods hex regardless of if a road exists and regardless of whether you are on the road or not. You must also undergo a Bog Check, however, if you are on a road, you do not undergo the Bog Check.
The last sentence of B13.41 "All MP penalties for entering a hex containing a wreck/vehicle, and/or for changing a VCA across a non-road hexside, are doubled while in a woods hex." does not distinguish between being on the road or in the woods portion of the hex. And parts of the rule paragraph apply to one or the other or both situations.

Clearly all woods hexes with no road have only "non-road hexsides", which means if D2.11 and B13.41 are cumulative (which is how the Q&A interprets it), it would normally be 4MP to change a VCA in a non-road woods hex (i.e., the 2MP in D2.11 doubled per B13.41).

As the question points out, the rule uses the term "penalties", not "normal cost". This works for a wreck/vehicle since the cost for entering the hex are increased due the their presence. It does not work clearly for VCA changes since a VCA change and its costs are separate and the additional cost for difficult terrain (i.e., in addition to normal) is 1MP. It is easy to interpret the additional cost as a "penalty". The Q&A makes errata to the sentence by changing the word "penalties" to "normal costs".

This is all true. The problem with the Q&A is that it doesn't leave room for interpretation of "penalties" and "regular" MP cost. It specifically states that it costs 4 MP to change VCA across a non-road hex side in a woods/road hex. Until this is clarified, that appears to be official ruling. Would be interesting to see what happens if this issue were to arise in a tournament setting. What is the TD supposed to do when asked to adjudicate?

 

[Wayne]

[I've =never= seen a knowledgeable player call in play "4 MP" re such a VCA change. I'm kinda sure I would've by now were 4 MP correct.]

Given rules-as-writ in the eASLRB, the cost is =not= 4 MP, but 2 -- I see no reading of the ASLRB making it 4 MP.

Scott asks, What is the source of this Q&A? I find it in ASL_QA_Total.pdf (v29-v22-v22) PDF-page 75.

I infer from my reading there that this is a Q&A on the Pegasus Bridge "Combination Terrain" HASL rules, =not= a query re the general rules.

IOW, unless that map fragment in the OP is from PB, the Q&A is NA re the OP. [And if the OP =is= a PB Q, I still think the Q&A has problems.]

That, or some other misunderstanding re this seemingly ASLRB-defying Q&A.

 

[bendizoid]

[I've =never= seen a knowledgeable player call in play "4 MP" re such a VCA change. I'm kinda sure I would've by now were 4 MP correct.]

Given rules-as-writ in the eASLRB, the cost is =not= 4 MP, but 2 -- I see no reading of the ASLRB making it 4 MP.

Scott asks, What is the source of this Q&A? I find it in ASL_QA_Total.pdf (v29-v22-v22) PDF-page 75.

I infer from my reading there that this is a Q&A on the Pegasus Bridge "Combination Terrain" HASL rules, =not= a query re the general rules.

IOW, unless that map fragment in the OP is from PB, the Q&A is NA re the OP. [And if the OP =is= a PB Q, I still think the Q&A has problems.]

That, or some other misunderstanding re this seemingly ASLRB-defying Q&A.

You tell ‘em, my engineer/lawyer buddy.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Scott asks, What is the source of this Q&A? I find it in ASL_QA_Total.pdf (v29-v22-v22) PDF-page 75.

I meant where was the Q&A originally from, where did Klas find it? E.g. "Annual '92" or "John Smith to ASLML and reply 1 Jan 2002".

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I meant where was the Q&A originally from, where did Klas find it? E.g. "Annual '92" or "John Smith to ASLML and reply 1 Jan 2002".

B13.41 Woods Road Vehicle Entry / VCA change D2.11

Q 1.) A vehicle crosses a Road hexside to enter a woods road hex (i.e.; driving on the road), using road rate, there is a wreck on the road, no other conditions apply. Is the cost 1 1/2 MP, 2 1/2 MP, or 4 1/2 MP? Assuming the vehicle is CE, the base MP cost is 1/2 MP. Per D2.14 this...

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