Axis forces in North Africa

Telumar

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
1,690
Reaction score
6
Location
niflheim
Country
llGermany
Dierk and i am approaching the first possible automatic US entry date (turn 128). What is unclear to me is if the House Rules about Axis forces in North Africa (sandy coloured) still applies if the entire Med (except Gibraltar) is in Axis hands.

Specifically:

If the US invade in North Africa, is it allowed to ship regular non-Afrika-Korps units (grey icon colour) from a Mediterranean harbour to North Africa?

Or may such units only be brought to North Afrika on a land route?
 

Bdr.Mallette

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
1,087
Reaction score
0
Location
Canada
Country
llCanada
That may have to be agreed upon by the players...but..... I think not because of desert training and allocated forces to Africa were at a certain size...... BESIDES....THEIR GREY UNIFORMS WOULD STAND OUT IN THE DESERT>>>sheeeesh.... heheheheheh


I would think a max of 2-3 regular corps would be acceptable....but .....
 

Telumar

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
1,690
Reaction score
6
Location
niflheim
Country
llGermany
Yes i know the limitation is about logistics. Nevertheless we've gone beyond all historically realistic logistics.. see Murmansk and Caucasus. And yes, i see that three Panzer- and seven Inf Corps plus a Luftflotte would be too much.. Maybe a force equivalent to the size of the current Afrika Korps, but not more (1 PzKorps, 1 "PzGren" Korps, 1 Inf Corps, 1 Eng Unit, the two light Divisions plus Flak). Or say, 3 Inf Korps plus 1 Pz Korps. Or 5 Inf Korps (if no PzKorps is send). For all of North Afrika.

Let's see what Marc and Dierk have to say.
 

Heldenkaiser

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
1,366
Reaction score
9
Location
19th century
Country
llGermany
Historically, the logistical restriction on any Axis force in Northern Africa was the handling capacity of the tiny Libyan ports more than the moderate size of the Italian navy which was subject to Allied interdiction attacks on its way across the Med. However, with the Germans holding Egypt and most of the coastline of the Med in Axis hands, I don't see any real obstacles to the Axis' supplying quite a large force in Africa. Not to mention the land route through Asia Minor. So? Keep them coming. You're still not over the Caucasus ... :)
 

AdrianE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
913
Reaction score
268
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Country
llCanada
Historically, the logistical restriction on any Axis force in Northern Africa was the handling capacity of the tiny Libyan ports more than the moderate size of the Italian navy which was subject to Allied interdiction attacks on its way across the Med. However, with the Germans holding Egypt and most of the coastline of the Med in Axis hands, I don't see any real obstacles to the Axis' supplying quite a large force in Africa.
For the first part you are correct. See Supplying War by van Creveld. For the second part you are incorrect. If by some miracle the Axis control Alexandria then the limitation for Egypt becomes the Italian merchant marine. Given that large numbers of Italian merchants were caught in Allied ports and on the open sea, there will be a real limitation. Some research would have to be done but I'd think that no more than 2x to 3x the historical forces could be supported. Also keep in mind that Italian merchant construction was miniscule.

Also note that the transportation infrastructure in the mid east was very poor. The railways that the Axis nations depended on to supply their armies, either didn't exist or were inadequate. In your game the massive German army group in the Caucauses should be starving to death if there was any realistic logistical depth to the game. Even if the Germans did take Egypt and the med, their armies weren't going anywhere. At least not in corps size formations.

Somewhere I've seen a quote that it would have been easier and quicker for the British to ship 100k tons of supplies from England to Baghdad that is would have been for the Germans to ship the same amount from Berlin.
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
4
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
Do remember that Alexandria was the main Allied naval base in the central and eastern Mediterranean: if that was lost, where is the fleet that's going to interdict the Italian merchant marine? Malta's too small, Gibraltar's too far away. And the port facilities in Alexandria, if they could be taken more-or-less intact, would greatly facilitate the turnaround times for unloading, plus provide a base from which the quite strong Italian navy could provide cover. Kesselring, in his autobiography, is convinced that the Italians, with a bit more willpower and effort, could have performed better that they did historically. Maybe the capture of the Commonwealth's principal naval base would have encouraged that extra effort?
 

AdrianE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
913
Reaction score
268
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Country
llCanada
Do remember that Alexandria was the main Allied naval base in the central and eastern Mediterranean: if that was lost, where is the fleet that's going to interdict the Italian merchant marine?
The brutal truth is the Allies don't have to. There aren't enough Italian merchant ships to supply a much bigger army than was historically supported. Also remember that the Italy - Alexandria distance is 3 to 4 times longer than the Italy - Tripoli distance. Those ships will spend more days at sea and burn more fuel which the Italians don't have. They could barely supply their navy for the short supply run. See this page : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53366 for some background info.


I'm sure that the Allies would completely wreck Alexandria if they thought they were going to lose it. IIRC Tripoli suffered some severe dock and warehouse damage when an Italian freighter blew up in harbor. The Italians couldn't or wouldn't fix the port so its a bit of wishful thinking to suppose they could fix a wrecked Alexandria. Logistics is an real achilles heel for the Axis, especially in North Africa.
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
4
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
As it happens I think that you're probably right, not just about an extra effort in North Africa following victory on the ground, but in more general terms that the Axis had 'lost' the war - certainly in Europe - by December 1941. Having failed either to finish off the United Kingdom, or cause the collapse of the Soviet regime, and with the US and its enormous industrial and economic potential starting to mobilise it was just a matter of time before Germany and its satellites and allies were ground down. 'Brute Force' by John Ellis makes the case very well, although it's a bit old now (1990) and presumably didn't have the benefit of the opening of the archives of the former Soviet Union. Unfortunately, a strategic wargame based on that premise isn't very interesting!
 

AdrianE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
913
Reaction score
268
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Country
llCanada
Unfortunately, a strategic wargame based on that premise isn't very interesting!
That's where I think you are wrong. The challenge as the Axis is to get as far as they did historically with their limitations and then hold on longer. The challenge as the Allies is to see if they can win quicker than historical.
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
4
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
Absolutely agree, and personally I always fight down to the steps of the Bunker if my Allied opponent wants me to, but I know from other gamers that many Axis players jack it in around mid-1942 if they haven't knocked out the USSR and realise that they're losing momentum. It's a pity, because they miss a lot of extra events and units (the US, Torch, D-Day, etc.,), however a lot of Axis players enjoy the blitzkrieg period but not the long defensive grind that occurred historically from 1943 - 5.
 
Top