Attention Mapmakers: Soviet villages

Michael Dorosh

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Since geo-boards need to be useful in many contexts, I would argue to leave them there. For the fences, they could be SSR'ed by declaring the Hedges to be +1 (or +2) LOS Hindrances only (no TEM; no LOS blockage).
Fair enough, but to be clear, my biggest objection is to the effect they would have on movement - limiting infantry to, in effect, a one hex minimum move when coupled with plowed fields/grain.
 

footsteps

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Fair enough, but to be clear, my biggest objection is to the effect they would have on movement - limiting infantry to, in effect, a one hex minimum move when coupled with plowed fields/grain.
SSR the movement effects as well. That's the purpose of SSRs - to momentarily alter the effects of some feature for the purposes of that particular scenario. For that matter, Chapter G terrain rules are basically one honking big SSR for PTO scenarios.
 

bprobst

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Given the "sturdiness" of some of those buildings, I would seriously consider SSRing them as huts. As for the fences, I would think hedge would be the closest thing in ASL terms.
No, no, no. We just had this conversation in a different thread!

An ASL hedge is nothing like a flimsy wooden fence. A sturdy, rugged, wooden fence, built by sturdy, rugged manly men -- sure. Not the things depicted in those photos. Here's the acid test: a Deuce-and-a-half truck smashes into a flimsy wooden fence. What happens? Not much happens to the truck, for sure -- perhaps the paintwork is scratched. And you're left with an ex-fence -- bits of wood scattered over the ground.

Replace "flimsy wooden fence" with "ASL Hedge" and the truck is stopped cold.

I would argue (and have argued, and will continue to argue) that "flimsy wooden fences" are already depicted on our ASL boards. You can assume that every other small wooden building -- and maybe even some of the larger wooden buildings -- has a flimsy wooden fence incorporated into the artwork. Can't see it? Get closer ... closer ... still closer ... so close that the map board is now stuck to your forehead. Still can't see those flimsy wooden fences? Now you understand exactly how much impact they have on the ASL environment.

They're like footpaths on a city board. Sometimes the artwork depicts them and sometimes it doesn't. Same result either way.

Now, if you do have a sturdy, manly wooden fence, able to withstand the assault of both men and machines -- then sure, use an ASL hedge depiction. You're just not going to see very many of them in villages such as in the photos above.

I'd agree with the general argument that most villages, as depicted on ASL geo-boards, either represent western European villages or no villages ever settled by man, anywhere. Few depict anything much like what we see in those photos. That's not necessarily a bad thing -- at the very least, it might inspire some more variety in new boards, which can't be a bad thing.
 

Futbol

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There's those fences I brought up in a previous post!!!
 

Rock SgtDan

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As design for effect, does this really differ from a hex or two of woods, with a road running thru it to provide visibility along a straight line thru them?
 

Philippe D.

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Woods are full-level LOS obstacles; woods-roads have clear LOS only through a specific direction. I fail to see how this could model what seems to be under discussion here.
 

jrv

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A bridge over a marsh is probably problematic and would have to have special rules. Is there a Location under the bridge? At what level? If at the same level, can you be off the bridge in the same hex? If so how do units on and off the bridge inter-relate?

JR
 

footsteps

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A bridge over a marsh is probably problematic and would have to have special rules. Is there a Location under the bridge? At what level? If at the same level, can you be off the bridge in the same hex? If so how do units on and off the bridge inter-relate?

JR
Crap! I can't shake the (wrong) assumption that Marsh is level -1. I will edit that section. Thanks for the catch.
 

Bob Walters

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Recall what the great John Hill said when he designed Squad Leader. The item in question does not have to exactly reflect reality but rather has to simulate the end effect. This is why we do not need an original board for each scenario.
 

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However, one thing I don't think we have really seen is low hills directly overlooking a wooden village and low farmland. BTW - some of the original pictures look like the farm villages in STALKER.
 
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Tuomo

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Semi-historical Ignorant American question - would such a Soviet village have a church?
 

DWPetros

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Mark,
Thanks for those photos - quite interesting. My motive for doing board 48 was based on the same idea, though the basis for that idea was aerial photos from higher altitude - not ground level ! I would have loved to have those photos you posted earlier. Other boards (56, 57, 69, 70 I think) had a similar idea in mind - open, surrounding small fields outside of the village, and the use of Hedges to (design for effect) work like wooden fences (no Wooden fences in the standard rules, alas). The Russian AP boards were designed for the reason of providing more boards with a decidedly Russian feel. So too boards 69 and 70 (I believe).
But you're quite right, there needs to be some good boards that show what you do above. The examples posted above look very cool - wish I could have done them.
In the upcoming Slaughter at Ponyri, the 'small plots behind the wooden buildings, wooden fences' are in fact captured.
 

Jazz

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Semi-historical Ignorant American question - would such a Soviet village have a church?
What a great question.

I think it would depend on the specific history of the burg in question. I know that the church in my mother's village in Lithuania was present until the Russians suspected there was OBA spotting happening from the steeple and blew it up in late summer 1944. But then Lithuania only became part of the USSR in 1940 and wuz not there long enough for proper cleansing to happen before June 22 1941.

I think just as good a question is what would a generic collective farm of that era look like? Would there be a village somehow attached/associated with it? After the collectivization of the Kulaks in the 20's I would think that most peasant communities in the Ukraine would not have a church, or at least not one prominent enough to be worthy of separate rules treatment.

A number of the pics posted by the original poster looked to be near mountains/foothills. Possibly in the Kalmyk Steppe area just North of the Caucasus? Possibly in the Valdai Hills area? Most definitely too hilly for the Ukraine methinks.

In short, I think that one needs to know just what area of the USSR one is talking about as I doubt a generic one-size-fits-all representation would be approximately as accurate as what he have not in geomorphic boards.
 

Justiciar

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Churches/synagogues were also often 're-purposed', as was the case in Cholm, which had 5 at one time, but these still retained a good deal of their religious architectural features/look on the outside. So Don's post 36, re-purposed might look the same except the crosses would be removed.

Here Cholm 1916 and 1942. (Not the same church, but just to show 'church' look remained.)
 

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footsteps

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Semi-historical Ignorant American question - would such a Soviet village have a church?
Even though it may no longer be used as a church, it would still contain a "steeple" Location.

With my Brest Fortress map, I made the Terespol Gate a Steeple location, not because it was (or had been) a church, but architecturally it had a Location like a Steeple.
 

footsteps

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Mark,
Thanks for those photos - quite interesting. My motive for doing board 48 was based on the same idea, though the basis for that idea was aerial photos from higher altitude - not ground level ! I would have loved to have those photos you posted earlier. Other boards (56, 57, 69, 70 I think) had a similar idea in mind - open, surrounding small fields outside of the village, and the use of Hedges to (design for effect) work like wooden fences (no Wooden fences in the standard rules, alas). The Russian AP boards were designed for the reason of providing more boards with a decidedly Russian feel. So too boards 69 and 70 (I believe).
But you're quite right, there needs to be some good boards that show what you do above. The examples posted above look very cool - wish I could have done them.
In the upcoming Slaughter at Ponyri, the 'small plots behind the wooden buildings, wooden fences' are in fact captured.
DFE (design for effect) - the mantra for all board designers.
 
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