ATR's and Point Blank Modifier C6.3 and C13.1

[thively]

Situation: German squad with ATR ADJACENT to French tank, wants to fire the ATR as ordnance and believes ATR should get Case L PBF TH modifier based on the exception in the rule (C6.3 Ordnance [EXC: non-ATR LATW using its own TH table; 13.] firing at a range of one or two hexes is considered to be firing at Point Blank Range...). German player is saying that since the rule exception is describing "non-ATR LATW" not getting PBF, then ATR's DO get PBF modifier.

French player is looking at C13.1 where it reads: All Firer and Target Hit Determination DRM applicable to LATW are listed on the To Hit Table and marked with a green "L". On the TH modifier card, there is no green L next to point blank. So the French player doesn't think ATR's get it as ATR's are defined as LATW's in C13.1.

The EXC in C6.3 is a bit confusing though. If the point of the EXC was to show LATW using their own TH table don't get the PB modifier, then why mention ATR's at all?

Need some help figuring this out.

 

[Vinnie]

The ATR gets the point blank modifier.
The green "l"s are for modifiers that affect LATW using their own tables.

 

[Fred Ingram]

And PF are considered to be using their own TH table even though it is not printed on a counter. It does not use the normal TH tables, but uses the very specific:

13.33 RANGE EFFECTS: The Basic TH# (10) of a PF/PFk attack is modified by -2 for each hex of range to the target.

Which amounts to it's own table: therefore, the point blank modifier does not apply to PF either

 

[Fort]

And PF are considered to be using their own TH table even though it is not printed on a counter. It does not use the normal TH tables, but uses the very specific:

13.33 RANGE EFFECTS: The Basic TH# (10) of a PF/PFk attack is modified by -2 for each hex of range to the target.

Which amounts to it's own table: therefore, the point blank modifier does not apply to PF either

C13.3 PANZERFAUST (PF): The PF31 is a potentially inherent SW of every German Infantry unit after September 1943, and uses the C3 To Hit Table (as per 13.33) and the C7.33 HEAT To Kill Table to resolve any vehicular hit. PF are not normally available prior to 10/43; prior to that date, encounters with PF were limited to some 5,000 weapons undergoing combat trials, which in the game are termed PFk. Possible encounters with PFk can occur anytime after July 1943, but only as per SSR.

Just sayin'

 

[MajorDomo]

C13.3 PANZERFAUST (PF): The PF31 is a potentially inherent SW of every German Infantry unit after September 1943, and uses the C3 To Hit Table (as per 13.33) and the C7.33 HEAT To Kill Table to resolve any vehicular hit. PF are not normally available prior to 10/43; prior to that date, encounters with PF were limited to some 5,000 weapons undergoing combat trials, which in the game are termed PFk. Possible encounters with PFk can occur anytime after July 1943, but only as per SSR.

Just sayin'

Gary,
Congrats on winning the grofaz, I think the most amazing feat is going undefeated for the entire week (18-0) IIRC.

I have never seen anyone play that a PF at one range (base 8 TO HIT) gets an additional -1 bonus for Point Blank Range despite the "C3 to hit" phrase.

And thanks for the dollar.

Rich

 

[Brian W]

Years ago, Case L did not apply to any LATW. Then it was change to all LATW. Then it was quickly changed to be only LATW that used their own TH Table. The ASLRB hasn't quite caught up with all the changes.

 

[Fort]

Years ago, Case L did not apply to any LATW. Then it was change to all LATW. Then it was quickly changed to be only LATW that used their own TH Table. The ASLRB hasn't quite caught up with all the changes.

Yeah, I know...it's my pet peeve....can't resist.

 

[Fort]

Gary,
Congrats on winning the grofaz, I think the most amazing feat is going undefeated for the entire week (18-0) IIRC.

I have never seen anyone play that a PF at one range (base 8 TO HIT) gets an additional -1 bonus for Point Blank Range despite the "C3 to hit" phrase.

And thanks for the dollar.

Rich

Thanks for the vote of confidence Rich, I was hoping we could play again, but just never seemed to work out schedule-wise.

See above reply...but in any case it would a -2 at range 1 for PB fire, -1 at range 2.

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

Years ago, Case L did not apply to any LATW. Then it was change to all LATW. Then it was quickly changed to be only LATW that used their own TH Table. The ASLRB hasn't quite caught up with all the changes.

You mean that DIDN'T use their own TH table I believe, as per the Chapter C 2nd Ed Chart?

 

[Brian W]

You mean that DIDN'T use their own TH table I believe, as per the Chapter C 2nd Ed Chart?

Yes, per the current ASLRB.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

So PF get point blank benifits now? Is this a Q&A?


Scott

 

[rdw5150]

Hi-

So PF get point blank benifits now? Is this a Q&A?


Scott

Agreed, I did not realize they got PB mod either. Where am I missing this?

Thanks!

Peace

Roger

 

[Brian W]

Agreed, I did not realize they got PB mod either. Where am I missing this?

They do not. Back when the rule was changed to allow ATRs to get Case L, it was quickly realized that the new ruling allowed for all LATW to get Case L. This was change within a month or so, to make it clear that it is only ATRs (or, to put it into the most confusing language possible, only LATW that so not use their own TH Table). The rule is still slightly confusing for the reason Fort references in this thread.

To summarize: PF/PFk/BAZ/PSK/MOL-P/ATMM/PIAT do not get case L. ATRs do.

 

[thively]

So, would a MG (either a MA of a vehicle or a SW) also get the Point Blank modifier on a TH attempt against armor if within 1 or 2 hex range?

 

[Brian W]

So, would a MG (either a MA of a vehicle or a SW) also get the Point Blank modifier on a TH attempt against armor if within 1 or 2 hex range?

Yes, and always have. MGs are not LATW.