ATR Sustained fire?

A_T_Great

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Hello,
Is an ATR allowed to fire a second time as Sustained fire?
 

Eagle4ty

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Yes no IF, Sustained fire, Long Range Fire, Multiple Hits, AP-IFE [EXC: 20L], ROF [EXC: 20L], or CH vs Infantry [EXC: 20L] (as other ATRs must use small arms IFT attack) for ATRs though it seems as if a CH using the VTT has managed to sneak in there somehow though the calibers of the systems wouldn't normally seem to warrant it.
 

Swiftandsure

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As per C5.6, Intensive Fire is available only to Guns, not SW. C13.2 adds no ability that might over rule C5.6 via E2.
A vehicle MA MG firing as ordnance is considered a Gun .
Index definition of a Gun : "for firing purposes, any weapon on a 5/8" counter currently firing as ordnance".
 

Nearmiss

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An ATR using Subsequent First Fire is using Intensive Fire, Sustained Fire or niether?
I think niether.
 

STAVKA

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A MMC/ATR using Subsequent First Fire is using Small Arms fire. Normal Malfunction rules apply for the ATR.
 

STAVKA

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If a unit is using SFF, it simply cannot use an ATR.

A8.3 ...Only Small Arms [EXC: MOL], MG, and IFE can be used as Subsequent First Fire.​
An ATR is none of these things. Small Arms are FP and weapons that are inherent to Personnel. Only Guns have an IFE. And an ATR is obviously not a MG.
ATR can be used as Small Arms fire, the rules are clear on this point, with the ecception that it cannot leave Residual FP and use normal malfunction rules.

C13.24 vs PERSONNEL: An ATR can be used against Personnel targets with one FP as Small Arms Fire (no To Hit DR is necessary and therefore it may be used as part of a FG but it has no Long Range capability; i.e., it
may not be fired beyond 12 hexes). An ATR leaves no Residual FP even if it attacks as part of a FG.
 

STAVKA

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The Q&A agrees that an ATR can be used as Smalls Arms fire in any way, but thinks the rule should be changed to make it NA. LOL
 

Larry

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A7.21 POINT BLANK FIRE (PBF): The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP
A7.24 AFPh FIRE:9 The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP of an attacking unit is halved if the attack occurs in the AFPh
B11.52 AP: AP/APCR/APDS/ATR hits vs a Gun are resolved using the same mechanics as HE hits, but using HE Equivalency (8.31). The Gun and any manning Infantry are destroyed by a CH/any K/KIA result. A MG attacking alone, an ATR attacking as Small Arms, or an ATR/MG attacking as part of a FG, may cause Gun Destruction only as per A9.74.

An ATR is like small arms but it isn't small arms. It can be used as like small arms or as ordnance. It is a tweener. But it is not small arms for purposes of SF, FPF, etc. COWTRA.
 

Eagle4ty

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A7.21 POINT BLANK FIRE (PBF): The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP
A7.24 AFPh FIRE:9 The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP of an attacking unit is halved if the attack occurs in the AFPh
B11.52 AP: AP/APCR/APDS/ATR hits vs a Gun are resolved using the same mechanics as HE hits, but using HE Equivalency (8.31). The Gun and any manning Infantry are destroyed by a CH/any K/KIA result. A MG attacking alone, an ATR attacking as Small Arms, or an ATR/MG attacking as part of a FG, may cause Gun Destruction only as per A9.74.

An ATR is like small arms but it isn't small arms. It can be used as like small arms or as ordnance. It is a tweener. But it is not small arms for purposes of SF, FPF, etc. COWTRA.
However, be advised a non-20L ATR may not attack a gun per C11.52 [EXC: through the procedure of A9.74] as it has no HE Equivalency (C8.31 note 1).
 

mgmasl

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Curios thing.. The ATR being 12-15mm may cause p.schock if rolling 1 higher tan needed on the to kill roll. But not a 15mm gun.
IMHO it must be changed to stun resull similar to MG and 12-15mm ordnance.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Curios thing.. The ATR being 12-15mm may cause p.schock if rolling 1 higher tan needed on the to kill roll. But not a 15mm gun.
IMHO it must be changed to stun resull similar to MG and 12-15mm ordnance.
There are 3 rough sizes of ATR.
The 7.92mm (German and Polish). Though rifle calibre these have muzzle velocities of ~1200 m/s.
The British Boys (14mm) and the Soviet PTRD/PTRS (14.5mm). The Boys only had a MV of 750 m/s (Mk 1 cartridge) or ~900 m/s (Mk 2). The Soviet 14.5 had a MV of 1100 m/s.
The Japanese 20mm Type 97 (MV 800 m/s), Lahti 20mm (MV 800 m/s) and the Solothurn 20mm S-18/100 (MV 735 m/s) and S-18/1000 (MV 850 m/s) as used by everyone else.

Rifle calibre and 12.7mm to 15mm HMG have MV of roughly 800 m/s. That means that if such a weapon penetrates it will have little energy to do much damage to the interior other than to human flesh.
The German and Polish ATR had roughly twice ((1200/800)^2 = 1.5^2 = 2.25) the energy of a rifle calibre round. The Polish ATR round with a lead core was not designed to penetrate but to cause a roughly 20mm patch of the inner face of the armour to detach and fragment as spall (like a HESH round). Either had either enough remnant energy or enough fragments to do more damage than MG AP rounds.
The Boys, though better than a rifle, was the worst, barely better than a 0.50" MG round.
The Soviet PTRD/PTRS was simply the best of all the WW2 ATR, outperforming even the 20mm ATRs. Lots more energy left after penetration than any 12.7-15mm MG.

So with the exception of the Boys I would be inclined to leave it as it is.
 

zgrose

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A7.21 POINT BLANK FIRE (PBF): The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP
A7.24 AFPh FIRE:9 The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP of an attacking unit is halved if the attack occurs in the AFPh
B11.52 AP: AP/APCR/APDS/ATR hits vs a Gun are resolved using the same mechanics as HE hits, but using HE Equivalency (8.31). The Gun and any manning Infantry are destroyed by a CH/any K/KIA result. A MG attacking alone, an ATR attacking as Small Arms, or an ATR/MG attacking as part of a FG, may cause Gun Destruction only as per A9.74.

An ATR is like small arms but it isn't small arms. It can be used as like small arms or as ordnance. It is a tweener. But it is not small arms for purposes of SF, FPF, etc. COWTRA.
I think ruling by inference from other rules is exactly the opposite of COWTRA, but does seem a strong backing that they may have left out an EXC in A8.3.
 
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