ATR Subsequent First Fire?

[Eagle4ty]

:hmmm: Since the firepower of an ATR used against personnel is considered small arms fire (C13.24), and since only small arms, MG/IFE can be used in Subsequent First Fire, can an ATR be used in Subsequent First Fire if used as small arms?

 

[Bret Hildebran]

Short answer is "NO!".

Long answer is A8.3 limits Subsequent First Fire to: "A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon)..." given an ATR is not an infantry unit nor it's MG or IFE Weapon, it cannot take advantage of Susequent First Fire.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Short answer is "NO!".

Long answer is A8.3 limits Subsequent First Fire to: "A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon)..." given an ATR is not an infantry unit nor it's MG or IFE Weapon, it cannot take advantage of Susequent First Fire.

Also note that the "its MG/IFE" part was added as errata in Journal 7.

A8.3: after "A DEFENDING Infantry unit", add "/(its MG/IFE-weapon)".

 

[Tater]

deleted

 

[Bret Hildebran]

deleted

You're such a tease!

 

[Tater]

You're such a tease!

You ought to see what I do when I'm feeling particularly naughty...:devious:

 

[Jazz]

You ought to see what I do when I'm feeling particularly naughty...:devious:

Just what I need for a mental image....a frisky Tate.....<shudder>

 

[Mister T]

Sorry to re-open the discussion

1
An ATR can be used against Personnel targets with one FP as Small Arms Fire.
2
Definition of small arms in the index:
The inherent FP of any personnel counter and includes any Inherent SW

3
Then if ATR= Small Arms and Small Arms=inherent FP, then I see nothing in A8.3, even with the erratum, that prevents me from firing the ATR in subsequent first fire.

For me, the ATR firepower is somewhat "merged" with the small arms of the unit, if used like this.

 

[Bret Hildebran]

Sorry to re-open the discussion

1
An ATR can be used against Personnel targets with one FP as Small Arms Fire.
2
Definition of small arms in the index:
The inherent FP of any personnel counter and includes any Inherent SW

3
Then if ATR= Small Arms and Small Arms=inherent FP, then I see nothing in A8.3, even with the erratum, that prevents me from firing the ATR in subsequent first fire.

For me, the ATR firepower is somewhat "merged" with the small arms of the unit, if used like this.

What you're missing is while an ATR can be fired once as small arms, to use Subsequent First Fire it must meet the requirements of A8.3. The requirements of A8.3 are to be either "A DEFENDING Infantry unit" - an ATR isn't infantry so we've got one no - OR "its MG" - an ATR is clearly not a Machine Gun so we're 0 for 2 - OR IFE-weapon - and an ATR is not IFE. i.e. an ATR meets none of the requirements needed to use SFF so it cannot Subsequent.

If the SFF rule said "Small arms fire may use Subsequent..." then an ATR could subsequent, but A8.3 is very explicit on what my use subsequent and an ATR just does not qualify. While you may view it as "merged with the small arms of the unit" the rules don't actually say that. After all an ATR can be fired as a fire group with a unit's inherent or on it's own with 1 FP at a seperate target, but it's not an "inherent" ATR.

 

[Mister T]

That's sound good.
:hail:

Thanks Bret

 

[Vinnie]

Sorry to butt in here but why is an ATR not IFE since it has an IFE equivalent of 1fp? Am I missing a definition of IFE?
(FWIW I agree it can't SFF but am looking for chapter and verse).

 

[Fort]

Sorry to butt in here but why is an ATR not IFE since it has an IFE equivalent of 1fp? Am I missing a definition of IFE?
(FWIW I agree it can't SFF but am looking for chapter and verse).

Do you see any Parentheses around a Firepower number on an ATR? If not, then it is not IFE by definition-C2.29. Only Guns with a parenthetical firepower printed on the counter are IFE.

 

[Eagle4ty]

T'anks fellas, no ATR! By the way that's about what I had arrived at as well but just needed to be loved.

 

[STAVKA]

What you're missing is while an ATR can be fired once as small arms...

There is no rule that claims that, the rule simple state that it can be used as Smalls Arms fire.

 

[STAVKA]

The requirements of A8.3 are to be either "A DEFENDING Infantry unit" - an ATR isn't infantry...

Not very convincing or logic, since Infantry use Small Arms fire as an ATR.

 

[Tater]

If the SFF rule said "Small arms fire may use Subsequent..." then an ATR could subsequent, but A8.3 is very explicit on what my use subsequent and an ATR just does not qualify. While you may view it as "merged with the small arms of the unit" the rules don't actually say that. After all an ATR can be fired as a fire group with a unit's inherent or on it's own with 1 FP at a seperate target, but it's not an "inherent" ATR.

Actually A8.3 says exactly that in the third sentence..."Only Small Arms [EXC: MOL], MG, and IFE can be used as Subsequent First Fire."

The rule leaps from using "Infantry unit" in the first sentence to using "Small Arms" two sentences later...why? I suspect it is because, for purposes of subsequent fire..."Infantry unit" and "Small Arms" are effectively the same (sans a SW, "Infantry units" can only use "Small Arms"). BTW, is there any other SW noted to be used "as Small Arms Fire" (SAF)...MG's are not noted as SAF. I think on the whole it seems relatively clear that the 1FP of the ATR has all the same ability/restrictions of any SAF, including SFF...and...FPF.

 

[Vinnie]

Maybe if uour 6'7" and can benchpress 300lbs, uoure not allowed to SFF as you have large arms?

 

[Tater]

Maybe if uour 6'7" and can benchpress 300lbs, uoure not allowed to SFF as you have large arms?

I have medium arms...medium old arms actually...

 

[STAVKA]

ATR can be used as Small Arms fire, the rules are clear on this point, with the ecception that it cannot leave Residual FP and use normal malfunction rules.

Here is a link on the same subject:

ATR Sustained fire?

Hello, Is an ATR allowed to fire a second time as Sustained fire?

www.gamesquad.com

C13.24 vs PERSONNEL: An ATR can be used against Personnel targets with one FP as Small Arms Fire (no To Hit DR is necessary and therefore it may be used as part of a FG but it has no Long Range capability; i.e., it
may not be fired beyond 12 hexes). An ATR leaves no Residual FP even if it attacks as part of a FG.