ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics?

NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

In case it actually matters...

The better, MUCH better, way to go about it is seen in this and many other threads. Someone finds what he believes to be a problem, he makes a case for it, others weigh in, a debate occurs, new facts/perspectives are introduced, the debate refines and until resolution. At which point the developer (in this case us) implements a fix to address the actual problem so that all customers get the correct fix to the correct problem. The one downside of this is the developer has to be willing and interested to make such fixes. Since we have a long history of being both willing and interested in getting things right, this method works fine for Combat Mission. Not so much for others :D

More and more frequently such debates have been resolved to show a major flaw in the original position and therefore no changes are needed. That's because the game system and the data within has had a chance to be pounded on by thousands of people over many years. Obvious problems have been long since discovered. But occasionally something does happen which causes us to implement a change or at least reexamine what we're doing. This is an example of that.

Having said that, this case also shows something that is fairly frequent. The Skwabie did apparently find something that needs attention, but the diagnosis was mostly flawed. Meaning, he made some good observations that appear to have merit, however his original position was based on some flawed understandings of both the real life tank and how Combat Mission works. Which is OK because we understand how the game works and therefore if someone can show us an end result that doesn't make sense we have the knowledge necessary to trace where the problem comes from. There's no need for end user forensics to be accurate.

Steve
I would have tore Steve a new as#hole in that thread. He can not read a drawing. He is a mathematical imbecile.

Hey, sorry Elvis. Gotta let you know, he thinks different than you. And he is pretty much full of it.
 

Redwolf

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Is there a word that can describe a tome of 'peeves'?

Recently, I saw a few instances of the awful vehicle motion inducing even more odd penetrations on highly sloped armor. This is the stupid jerking from either starting or stopping or from main gun fire. A hit on a AFV that is doing this "eye-candy" gets even more bad modeling of hits on roofs and other near horizontal parts. The stupid game does not model gun depression, yet it takes this bad modeling of AFV motion into "effect".

I have driven tracked vehicles. You barely use the brakes since the rolling resistance is so great in most situations. There is SO much youtube EVIDENCE that even a JS-II firing a high velocity 122mm weapon DOES NOT ROCK THE CHASSIS that I wonder what the Judges-son and Steviereno think they are doing? Is it because they think it "looks cool!"? Well, it looks stupid. And maybe it would be possible if Elvis might share those internalized discussions?
Those things are hard to fix, and it is debatable what you would have the code do if you magically could do any change you wanted, and there is no way to know whether the fix is any good other than running the new code for a while.

That is entirely different from a trivial math error such as the fortifications victory point calculation, which also already had a fix (in CMAK).
 

Elvis

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

In case it actually matters...



I would have tore Steve a new as#hole in that thread. He can not read a drawing. He is a mathematical imbecile.

Hey, sorry Elvis. Gotta let you know, he thinks different than you. And he is pretty much full of it.
Actually doesn't change it at all. If all changes/advances were based on a once every 6 month thread where someone intelligently makes their case, there wouldn't be much to do while waiting for those threads to pop up.

And regarding the post before......You have a basic fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanics of how the games are made. I'm not sure you could be further off the mark.

And as far as the results go? You can't please all the people, all of the time. As long as you can please enough to keep the lights on, you're doing well.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Actually doesn't change it at all. If all changes/advances were based on a once every 6 month thread where someone intelligently makes their case, there wouldn't be much to do while waiting for those threads to pop up.

And regarding the post before......You have a basic fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanics of how the games are made. I'm not sure you could be further off the mark.

And as far as the results go? You can't please all the people, all of the time. As long as you can please enough to keep the lights on, you're doing well.
You missed the point. STEVE says that is the process. And the discussion is how games are FIXED, not made. That is, post release and after funds have been collected to keep the lights on. AND Steve claims most things are working fine. Hence his attacks on anyone trying to fix anything.

And, believe me, the current list of "fixes" for CMFB is light. And so is the Feature list.
 
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NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Those things are hard to fix, and it is debatable what you would have the code do if you magically could do any change you wanted, and there is no way to know whether the fix is any good other than running the new code for a while.

That is entirely different from a trivial math error such as the fortifications victory point calculation, which also already had a fix (in CMAK).
Not sure if the vehicle physics model is that hard to fix? Just stop doing the unrealistic motion.
 

Elvis

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

You missed the point. STEVE says that is the process. And the discussion is how games are FIXED, not made. That is, post release and after funds have been collected to keep the lights on. AND Steve claims most things are working fine. Hence his attacks on anyone trying to fix anything.

And, believe me, the current list of "fixes" for CMFB is light. And so is the Feature list.
Are you being serious or just messing with me? It's hard to tell sometimes. STEVE is not at all saying that that is how changes are made. He is, very obviously, speaking about how information posted by players is best done to exact change. He is saying that for a player to get their attention to make a change they should do it (almost) just like that guy in that thread. Submit clear evidence to back up your point, as opposed to "I think x,y and z aren't modeled well..." and not back it with anything facts....other than "it doesn't feel right". But he is 100% talking about the public forum and I'm going to have to swing to the side of "you're just messing with me" because you're not stupid enough to think he was talking about the game development behind the scenes.
 

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Yes. It was obvious to me. You are confusing internal and external inputs it seems. And to be absolutely clear, I will repeat myself and say I am speaking about released product. The whole pre-release process of volunteers and programmers not catching things is internal and obviously not open to public debate.

And he also says they are the expert guessers. And, if you read through that thread, he doesn't even say how they fixed the issue. Just that its 'fixed'.

If we take the physics modeling of 30 ton vehicles rocking like hobby-horses, it may have been brought up by someone prerelease, but that may or may not have happened. But, certainly, post release it was immediately commented on and BF said some words to the effect "We will keep it for now". And now, after seeing some top hits and unusual penetrations, one could further that discussion regarding the impact it has, or start one of those tickets. Then, the expert guessers might have some internal discussions and reguess about the "coolness" factors.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

For those that might have missed the King Tiger Mantlet thread...


http://community.battlefront.com/topic/121294-kingtiger-mantlet-and-coax-mg-problem-and-an-attempted-3d-model-fix/?page=1

Steve jumps in at pg. 4.

ChrisND actually handled it before Steve jumps in. Not that I think ChrisND actually understood the drawings either. But Steve clearly did not grasp that the guy had hacked the King Tiger file. He did not engage in discussion but just jumped into his pontification-mode and bullied the thread till he states that the hacker was wrong, Jentz is wrong, etc. and then he locked the thread after pissing the guy off.

I still hope that someone starts a new thread using the tank commander hack the guy did.
 

Redwolf

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Not sure if the vehicle physics model is that hard to fix? Just stop doing the unrealistic motion.
Well that is cosmetic. I was making the point that with non-cosmetic combat effect modeling you can have a lot of uncertainty. Not to with simple math bugs in victory points.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Well that is cosmetic. I was making the point that with non-cosmetic combat effect modeling you can have a lot of uncertainty. Not to with simple math bugs in victory points.
Perhaps the first intent was cosmetic or "coolness", but it might actually introduce unwarranted slope effects on the armor piercing model. I have seen AFV get hits just as they 'dip'.

Someone mentioned this in the CMFB AAR when the Panther was dispatched my a sherman 76mm firing regular AP (M62). The hit on the lower hull that is. I have my doubts about a 76mm taking out that panther. They writeups seem to not mention ranges, I am too lazy to look at the maps etc.
 

Redwolf

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

CMx1 and CMx2 are full of code that would improve the game if simply turned off.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

CMx1 and CMx2 are full of code that would improve the game if simply turned off.
Steve's mantra about not putting things in/priorities/etc. might want to take into account things like this physics modeling being wrong. It takes time to do this coding. In my opinion, it detracts from the game as far as being a simulation type wargame. Its goofy.

In real life, you would burn out the brakes very quickly if you drove like that. It also throws off everyone inside the vehicle and aiming and sighting of the weapon is disrupted. If guns rocked the AFV like they do in CM, you would lose your sight picture during the critical post firing period.

I am a bit shocked that the claim is that CM3 won't be much different than CM2. That is, not a radical change like CM1 to CM2. Things like smaller action spots, individual troops, realistic artillery, etc. are probably off the board. To be honest, I have my doubts that they will make it to CM3. They way he rambles on, it seems like a classic case of someone talking themselves into selling off the biz. This might actually be best for the customers if a larger company could use its resources more effectively than a small mom-n-pop.
 

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

The saddest part is that the competition pretty much dropped out of the race. Is anything happening with Panzer Command?
Since it is mostly me (models and the data) and Rick (programming) and he doesn't have much time to work on the code only small changes are being looked at. I almost forgot how to make 3D models as it's been about 2 years.
I have an unfinished FT-17 as well as a Stalingrad grain elevator. Just made a new map to test new items in a new theater. Don't know if it ever will see the light of day though.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

CMx1 and CMx2 are full of code that would improve the game if simply turned off.
Here is a fresh 'Steveism' that sheds light on his strange rationale...

I don't like the "floating world" aspect of CMx2 either, but at the time we made the engine there was no choice except to neuter the playable space in major ways to free up polies and processor power to simulate unplayable space. Now? It could probably be done with major work to the game engine. And that gets us right back to where we always land... what would you guys be willing to sacrifice to make that happen? 1 year with no new games and no new features other than that? If it came to a vote and voted for that you would be out voted.
It will be interesting to see if anyone notices the 'Emperer's New Clothes'...Seems that it HAS been a year...AND there are NO new features!!!! He must live in a charmed world up there in the woods.

I say take a vote. My vote is sell the business to a positively minded concern and let Steve retire to his small town politics.
 
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Redwolf

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Can you elaborate on what he means with "floating world", "polies", and what unplayable space is supposed to have to do with anything?
 

mOBIUS

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

The basis for every 3D structure is the poly. Basically a triangle defined by 3 points. And each can have a texture.
A CM1 tank will have from 200-300 to high detailed CM2 with maybe 10k. (I'm guessing because the most we use in PCO is about 5k.) The game engine has to deal with them. Every tree, house, tank, or infantry man taxes the engine with having to manipulating these polys. Those tanks shooters like World of Tanks or War Thunder have at max 20 tanks and no infantry so they can have even better models with more polys.

I have no idea what floating world or unplayable space is.
 
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NUTTERNAME

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Can you elaborate on what he means with "floating world", "polies", and what unplayable space is supposed to have to do with anything?
I just snicker at Steve's comments like that. Especially since he made that "1 Year" remark. Also, they have been consistently negative towards the use of multiprocessor coding. The basic party line is that it is not worth the effort. Of course, he mentions "processor power" out of the other side of his mouth...So, you can probably ask him to elaborate on such things...just make sure to lift your feet off the floor...or wear stilts. To more he yabbers, the deeper the "floating world" gets.

To be fair, I just think he is repeating information that he has been told and may not even regurgitate it verbatim.
 

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Can you elaborate on what he means with "floating world", "polies", and what unplayable space is supposed to have to do with anything?


Floating world is when you zoom all the way out, the game map appears to float in green space.
 

mOBIUS

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Re: ATG/AAA/etc, No Optics? Wpn Controls?

Also, they have been consistently negative towards the use of multiprocessor coding. The basic party line is that it is not worth the effort. Of course, he mentions "processor power" out of the other side of his mouth...
The main way I think multi-processor use is done now days is by coding with a MS .Net code compiler. That is the way PCO does it. MS code may be bulky and less optimized than others.

But, if they ever do go for multi-processor use over at BF, you can be sure this will be touted to the ends of the Earth. Wasn't relative sighting 'baloney' when CM didn't have it?
 
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