Assault Movement and Smoke

UXB

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A MMC in open ground wants to move to an Adjacent open ground location.

The MMC announces Assault Move and smoke placement in the hex it's
moving to.

Is this "simultaneous" MF expenditure? thus it is only subject to DFF after
the resolution of the smoke placement.

If the smoke placement is successful (and there are no other LOS hindrances) a DFF shot would receive only +2 for smoke hindrance.
It would also be subject to 2 DFF shots since it had spend 1 for the Assault
Move and 1 to place smoke in it's hex?

If the smoke placement is unsuccessful, (and assuming no other LOS
hindrances), a DFF shot would receive -1 FFMO.
Would it also be subject to 2 shots: 1 for the AM and 1 for the failed
smoke placement?

Thanks
 

Pitman

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The smoke placement occurs first, I think (no rule book handy). This means DFF is allowed (but only after placement). Then the movement occurs (and more DFF allowed). Keep in mind that it costs 2mp to place smoke in adjacent hex and 2mp to move into a smokefilled open ground hex, so that is 4mp, disqualifying assault move unless a leader is present.
 

ds

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The only exception I can think of is that Assault Movement would be possible if that OG movement is along a road hexside. But still, the two actions would be separate (and individually subject to DF).
 

Commissar Piotr

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Hi Guys

Note that road bonus is NA if moving through smoke so that assault move option is NA as well. Got to have a Leader to be able to assault move and place smoke into the hex you are assault moving into.
 

Ole Boe

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UXB said:
A MMC in open ground wants to move to an Adjacent open ground location.

The MMC announces Assault Move and smoke placement in the hex it's
moving to.

Is this "simultaneous" MF expenditure? thus it is only subject to DFF after
the resolution of the smoke placement.
No, there is nothing in the AM rules that indicates that different MF expenditures becomes simultaneous. A defender may DFF after each expenditure as normal. Another importan example of this is exiting a trench and entering a new Location, where the defender may fire at the unit after it has exited the trench, but before having entered the new Location.

If the smoke placement is successful (and there are no other LOS hindrances) a DFF shot would receive only +2 for smoke hindrance.
It would also be subject to 2 DFF shots since it had spend 1 for the Assault
Move and 1 to place smoke in it's hex?
It will be subject to two DFF shots, since it cost 2 MF to place smoke in an adjacent hex, but its correct that DFF is after the smoke is placed.

If the smoke is successful, the unit can only enter the smoke location if accompanied by a leader, since the total MF cost is 4.

If the smoke placement is unsuccessful, (and assuming no other LOS hindrances), a DFF shot would receive -1 FFMO.
Would it also be subject to 2 shots: 1 for the AM and 1 for the failed
smoke placement?
-1 FFMO is correct, assuming that the start Location (where he is attacked after having tried to place the smoke) is OG. After having survived DFF fire based on the smoke attaempt, it may continue to the target Location for 1 MF (total of 3), for another -1 FFMO attack.[/quote][/i]
 

Darkman

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Placing smoke prevents Assault Movement?

A couple of times in this thread it has been stated that a MMC throwing smoke into an adjcent open ground hex; can not then use Assault Movement to enter that smoke hex.

I assume that is based on the A4.61 1st sentence (...moves less than/equal to one location during its MPh with out using all of its MF).

But I thought the exception that follows that sentence stated that MF spent on same location expenditiure (which placing smoke grenades would be) didn't count for that calculation. SOOO while moving into the just placed smoke grenade would use up all the MF of a unassisted MMC, it only used 2MF for movement purposes and thus could place smoke then move into it.
 

Pitman

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You are talking about something different--you are talking about moving into an adjacent hex and then placing smoke there, rather than placing smoke in an adjacent hex, then moving there.
 

Ole Boe

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I don't think he's talking about something different, the exception in A4.61 applies both to MF expendtiture in the Locations left and entered, however,
Darkman is misreading the exception in question - which isn't very strange, since it is no exception at all, but rather a clarification.

The rule reads
Infantry ... that moves ≤ one Location during its MPh without using all of its MF ..., may use Assault Movement. [EXC: additional MF expenditure within a Location ... in addition to a change of Location, does not prevent Assault Movement unless, in so doing, a unit expends all its MF or requires CX status.]
So the rule says that a unit must move maximum one location and not use all MF, and the "exception" says that in addition to the one Location change, it can do other things, unless if it expends all MF. So the exception is no exception, only a clarification that explains that other MF expenditures is allowed as normal as long as the "not use all MF" requirement is true.
 

mharviala

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So just to make sure I grok this as well, the first case is certainly clear enough (smoke into ADJ location, can't AM in because it will use all MF), but if you AM into the open, (and accept the -1 for AM in open) then you could pop smoke for an additional 1MF since you won't have used all of your MF.

Guess I'd go with the latter since you won't have to take the -2 DFF to throw the smoke (assuming you start in OG and fail).
 

Pitman

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Ole, how can you say that he is not talking about two different things? In the original case, the issue was throwing smoke into an adjacent hex, then moving in. The way he stated it, the issue was moving into an adjacent hex, then laying smoke in that hex.
 

Darkman

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No Mark, Ole gets my question as I hoped it would be read.

I see what he means about the exception being more of a clairification than an exception to the rule. Which is a disapointing way for the rules to handle smoke grenades. I've always thought the effect of having smoke grenades only affect one phase of half a turn as overly limiting on smoke grenades. I mean most squads have such low placement die rolls, and if they roll a 6 their stuck where they are, that it can be a big gamble to try to place smoke. The reward for placing it is limited to such a short duration, and now I see that squads risking using smoke grenades probably cant benefit from them with out a leader assist.

There is still some benefit to smoke grenades for a squad, but not much considering what it costs the units to place grenades; both in terms of lost MF and the chance of failure.
 

Ole Boe

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pitman said:
Ole, how can you say that he is not talking about two different things? In the original case, the issue was throwing smoke into an adjacent hex, then moving in. The way he stated it, the issue was moving into an adjacent hex, then laying smoke in that hex.
What I meant was that placing smoke, regardless of whether its done from the first or second location, is exactly the same thing in regard to the A4.61 exception. The difference is the number of MF used. You're of course absolutely right, that the original case limits AM unless moving with a leader.

Darkman: The probably most important use for infantry smoke is when you need to cross one hex of open ground. Without smoke, you may choose between:
*Assault Movement into the OG hex, for one DFF (per defender stack) shot at -1, and unlimited (limited by ROF) number of shots at 0 TEM (during the DFPh).
*Dash (if crossing a road hex) through the OG hex for half FP, but -2 DRM, or
*Place smoke with one unit (2MF), and if successful declare CX with this squad, enter the OG hex behind the hex you placed smoke (1MF) and enter the target hex (2MF). This will mean one shot with a +1 DRM, and any residual reuced two columns, thus attacks of less than 8 FP will The rest of the stack can then move through the smoke hex or dash through the hex behind, depending on residual FP.

You'll need the successful smoke placement dr of course. I recently played the U.S. in Gavin Take, where the U.S. has 9? 7-4-7 with smoke exponent of 3. On my turn two, I wanted to cross some streets as explained above, and rolled a total of 8 smoke dr that turn. Of those 8, I rolled one 3 (smoke), one 5 and six 6. :cry:
 

Swiftandsure

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What seems the biggest problem with smoke grenades, is the "1" or "2" exponent units...
I (nearly, as my memory dwindles sometimes) never try smoke grenades with a German 467, for an example...
The fact that MF are expended in the attempt anyhow restrains me from the attempt even more...
With "3" or more (Asslt Eng) units, I do try smoke quite often.

Just a question : if a US squad throws a WP grenade, does it have to pass a WP MC, in the case the grenade is thrown in its own hex or if it enters the hex where the grenade was thrown?
 

Ole Boe

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Robin said:
Just a question : if a US squad throws a WP grenade, does it have to pass a WP MC, in the case the grenade is thrown in its own hex or if it enters the hex where the grenade was thrown?
Yes to both:
A24.31 said:
All units (including friendly ones) ... in a Location with a WP counter must take a NMC when they move into it or the WP is placed in that Location...
 

UXB

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Thanks for the exellent discussion

Thanks all. I learned a lot from this thread!
 

Darkman

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Ole stole my smoke dice

Thanks for the response on this quesiton Ole, all of those 6's on smoke rolls must a hurt, must a hurt bad. Not that I do better on mine. Last year I was playing Scenario C (Streets of Stalingrad) and tried to throw smoke for my German engineers to approach the factory. 6 rolls no smoke and 2 stuck where they were. Like an idiot i figured I'd give it a go anyways with my 10-3 leading the charge with the remaining MMC. The concealed MMG wounded my 10-3 and left him in the street with a broken 1/2 squad engineer. and nothing else.
 
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