Assault Fire for 468, 447, 436 SS-Squads from 1944 onwards?

[von Marwitz]

Question:



Do 468, 447, 436 SS-squads get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?


Rules:

A25.11 SS: SS squads/HS (6-5-8/3-4-8) are elite Class troops differentiated by the SS insignia on the counter and their increased Morale Level on their broken side. Early-war SS squads/HS (4-6-8/2-4-8) also have the SS insignia and increased broken Morale Level. SS crews and SMC do not receive the increased Morale Level on their broken side, and are therefore represented by normal German crew and SMC counters. SS are entitled to Assault Fire capabilities in any scenario during 1944-45. SS will not surrender to Russians via the RtPh method (20.21), do not become Disrupted while opposing Russians, and may perform Massacre (20.4). Any weapon/AFV identified in a scenario Order of Battle as belonging to a SS formation has its Depletion Numbers increased by one due to being Elite (C8.2).


Considerations:

I think this came up recently in another context but I couldn't find it anymore.

Basically, the question boils down to if A25.11 only applies to 658s and whether other SS-printed counters are handled only by their respective HASLs they came in. Background is that the ASLRB was printed at a time when there were no 468, 447, 436 printed-SS counters.


von Marwitz

 

[Mr Incredible]

Designers beware.

 

[Actionjick]

Question:

View attachment 14835

Do 468, 447, 436 SS-squads get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?


Rules:

A25.11 SS: SS squads/HS (6-5-8/3-4-8) are elite Class troops differentiated by the SS insignia on the counter and their increased Morale Level on their broken side. Early-war SS squads/HS (4-6-8/2-4-8) also have the SS insignia and increased broken Morale Level. SS crews and SMC do not receive the increased Morale Level on their broken side, and are therefore represented by normal German crew and SMC counters. SS are entitled to Assault Fire capabilities in any scenario during 1944-45. SS will not surrender to Russians via the RtPh method (20.21), do not become Disrupted while opposing Russians, and may perform Massacre (20.4). Any weapon/AFV identified in a scenario Order of Battle as belonging to a SS formation has its Depletion Numbers increased by one due to being Elite (C8.2).


Considerations:

I think this came up recently in another context but I couldn't find it anymore.

Basically, the question boils down to if A25.11 only applies to 658s and whether other SS-printed counters are handled only by their respective HASLs they came in. Background is that the ASLRB was printed at a time when there were no 468, 447, 436 printed-SS counters.


von Marwitz

This or a similar question was in a recent thread but I can't recall either. Old people.

May have been the Bone of Contention thread.

 

[Robin Reeve]

468 being Early War SS (A25.11... Early-war SS squads/HS (4-6-8/2-4-8) also have the SS insignia and increased broken Morale Level.), they shouldn't be used in 1944-45.

Now, the 447 and 436 due to Replacement appeared in modules later than the original rules.
Deisgners should be precise about assault fire for those units (I would not mind it to be enforced : Early War Poles 458 and 457 have assault fire due to their BARs in place of LMGs... I would venture that Sturmgewehrs and SMGs could justify assault fire for 4FP SS units).

 

[The Purist]

Well,... in the case of the 436 I would say no AF. This squad does not even rate spraying fire which may indicate a lack of automatic weapons still available to the squad (or the will/ammunition to use them).

Just my two pence.

 

[Vinnie]

The only "official" use of a 436 AS squad that springs to mind is ABTF which states that The 436 is not an AS squad.

6.2 SS UNIT REPLACEMENT: The progression for all SS MMC subject to Replacement is shown below. The Morale Number of SS MMC is never considered underlined for any purpose [EXC: Assault Engineers; 6.1]. All German non-crew MMC that Battle Harden follow the reverse of this order.


6.21 SS 4-4-7s/2-3-7s are considered Elite (A1.25). Any SS MMC Replaced with a conscript MMC is considered Inexperienced (A19.3) for all purposes and is no longer considered SS (A25.11). All German 4-3-6s/2-2-6s become SS 4-4-7s/2-3-7s when they Battle Harden.

9.6. UNIT REPLACEMENT: Much has been made about the elan and spirit of the British 1st Airborne, particularly in Arnhem. The truth of the matter is that only about half of the British troops had any battle experience at all. Those with experience were veterans of Tunisia and Sicily and were definitely no strangers to close quarter fighting. Though they had been fighting in mountain passes and rocky crags, these buildings at Arnhem were little different. This is reflected in game terms by the initial British forces having a morale of 8 and an ELR of 5. The staying power of these troops will dwindle away as the CG progresses, simulating the loss of the combat experienced men throughout the British units. Their German counterparts were a mixed group of veterans, old men and teenagers. Though nearly replenished to about one-half of their D-Day manpower strengths-at least on paper-the 9th and 10th SS Divisions were barely a shadow of their true TO&E. Much of their equipment and veteran cadre had been lost in the retreat from Cambrai. However, a pool of trained replacements was readily available. In many cases a veteran platoon would be broken down with its core distributed to several sections. This formed a section with 2 or 3 veterans surrounded by a balance of inexperienced troops. The result was a highly aggressive squad that was also very fragile. These rules simulate the nature of the forces battling in and around Arnhem. For the British, the troops lose their ability to fight for a number of reasons wounds, exhaustion, lack of water and ammunition not the least among them. The Germans lose their ability to continue the fight due their rapidly depleting pool of experienced, fit fighting men. The Campaign Exhaustion DRM is an abstraction of these factors as well.

 

[von Marwitz]

Interesting.

Before posting, I went through old threads and what I found there was just about the same as here. More or less good guessing but nothing definitive.

I think I'll go for a 'Perry Sez'.

IMHO the problem with late war SS-formations can be the following: You can have relatively low morale SS troops that were reasonably well equipped. These are difficult to represent by 658s or 548s late in the war. a 468 might be better suited albeit the ASLRB terms them "early SS". The 447s and 436s justly close that gap.

Of the Sturmgewehr 44, more than 400.000 pieces were produced. They were not merely reserved for elite formations. Some Volksgrenadier Divisions had them. Single shot in engagements was fired at ranges of up to 400 meters. When the enemy closed in, the weapons were switched to auto.

IMHO extending Assault Fire to all SS from 1944 onwards, inclusiveof 468s, 447s, and 436s would make sense by default.

von Marwitz

 

[RandyT0001]

Assault Fire is not about having automatic weapons within a squad, it is about the training or experience to use automatic fire in the assault with sufficient effect to garner the additional 1FP. That is why it has been left to designers to use an SSR when such training or experience exists in those late war SS units.

IMO

 

[Actionjick]

Assault Fire is not about having automatic weapons within a squad, it is about the training or experience to use automatic fire in the assault with sufficient effect to garner the additional 1FP. That is why it has been left to designers to use an SSR when such training or experience exists in those late war SS units.

IMO

Another interesting thread.

 

[von Marwitz]

Sent the 'Perry Sez'

Hello Perry,

lately the question came up twice on how to interpret A25.11 with regard to SS squads which were partly not yet in existence when the rule was laid down and have later been published only in HASLs.

A25.11
... SS are entitled to Assault Fire capabilities in any scenario during 1944-45. ...

Questions:

Do 468, 447, 436 squads with printed SS insignia get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?
Do 468, 447, 436 squads specfied by SSR to be SS get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?
Do 468, 447, 436 squads that are specified to belong to a SS unit ("Elements of...") get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?


And while we are at it:

A25.11
... SS will not surrender to Russians via the RtPh method (20.21), do not become Disrupted while opposing Russians, and may perform Massacre (20.4). ...

Questions:

Are 468, 447, 436 squads and their HS with printed SS insignia entitled to the above characteristics?
Are 468, 447, 436 squads and their HS specfied by SSR to be SS entitled to the above characteristics?
Are 468, 447, 436 squads and their HS that are specified to belong to a SS unit ("Elements of...") entitled to the above characteristics?


Thanks in advance,
von Marwitz

 

[Actionjick]

Sent the 'Perry Sez'

Hello Perry,

lately the question came up twice on how to interpret A25.11 with regard to SS squads which were partly not yet in existence when the rule was laid down and have later been published only in HASLs.

A25.11
... SS are entitled to Assault Fire capabilities in any scenario during 1944-45. ...

Questions:

Do 468, 447, 436 squads with printed SS insignia get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?
Do 468, 447, 436 squads specfied by SSR to be SS get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?
Do 468, 447, 436 squads that are specified to belong to a SS unit ("Elements of...") get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?


And while we are at it:

A25.11
... SS will not surrender to Russians via the RtPh method (20.21), do not become Disrupted while opposing Russians, and may perform Massacre (20.4). ...

Questions:

Are 468, 447, 436 squads and their HS with printed SS insignia entitled to the above characteristics?
Are 468, 447, 436 squads and their HS specfied by SSR to be SS entitled to the above characteristics?
Are 468, 447, 436 squads and their HS that are specified to belong to a SS unit ("Elements of...") entitled to the above characteristics?


Thanks in advance,
von Marwitz

Pretty well thought out series of questions.

How was dinner?
The Pennsylvania Dutch call it supper. Really not Dutch, German ancestors. They call us English!!

 

[Robin Reeve]

French speaking Swiss call it "souper" (equivalent to supper), but French say "dîner" (= dinner), souper being a late evening snack.

 

[Actionjick]

French speaking Swiss call it "souper" (equivalent to supper), but French say "dîner" (= dinner), souper being a late evening snack.

The Last Dinner just doesn't sound right.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Question:

View attachment 14835

Do 468, 447, 436 SS-squads get Assault Fire benefits in/after 1944?


Rules:

A25.11 SS: SS squads/HS (6-5-8/3-4-8) are elite Class troops differentiated by the SS insignia on the counter and their increased Morale Level on their broken side. Early-war SS squads/HS (4-6-8/2-4-8) also have the SS insignia and increased broken Morale Level. SS crews and SMC do not receive the increased Morale Level on their broken side, and are therefore represented by normal German crew and SMC counters. SS are entitled to Assault Fire capabilities in any scenario during 1944-45. SS will not surrender to Russians via the RtPh method (20.21), do not become Disrupted while opposing Russians, and may perform Massacre (20.4). Any weapon/AFV identified in a scenario Order of Battle as belonging to a SS formation has its Depletion Numbers increased by one due to being Elite (C8.2).


Considerations:

I think this came up recently in another context but I couldn't find it anymore.

Basically, the question boils down to if A25.11 only applies to 658s and whether other SS-printed counters are handled only by their respective HASLs they came in. Background is that the ASLRB was printed at a time when there were no 468, 447, 436 printed-SS counters.


von Marwitz

No the counter depictions for rule A25.1-25.2 (2nd Ed.) show all SS Squads as having an underlined range factor denoting Spray Fire capabilities (A1.22 & A7.34) but only 838, 658 (specifically called out by rule) & 548 squads as having Assault Fire capabilities (A1.121 & A7.36).

 

[von Marwitz]

Yes the counter depictions for rule A25.1-25.2 (2nd Ed.) show all SS Squads as having an underlined range factor denoting Assault Fire capabilities.

I think underlined FP means "Assault Fire Capability" (A1.21 & A7.36), underlined range means "Spraying Fire Capability" (A1.22 & A7.34), and underlined morale means "ELR: 5" (A1.23 & A19.13)

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

I think underlined FP means "Assault Fire Capability" (A1.21 & A7.36), underlined range means "Spraying Fire Capability" (A1.22 & A7.34), and underlined morale means "ELR: 5" (A1.23 & A19.13)

von Marwitz

Edited my reply as mistyped original post.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A25.11... SS will not surrender to Russians via the RtPh method (20.21), do not become Disrupted while opposing Russians, and may perform Massacre (20.4). ...

I'd say this is down the formation - not what type of MMC is used.

 

[RandyT0001]

I'd say this is down the formation - not what type of MMC is used.

In other words, if the scenario card lists the force as "Elements of SS unit . . ." means the units depicted in the OOB utilize A25.11 regardless of the actual counter nomenclature or absence thereof, correct?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In other words, if the scenario card lists the force as "Elements of SS unit . . ." means the units depicted in the OOB utilize A25.11 regardless of the actual counter nomenclature or absence thereof, correct?

No, I was just referring the the "SS don't Surrender vs Russians" rule. That is (IMO) not tied to the MMC, but the formation - sort of like the Elite (C8.2) status.

If one uses MMC without the "SS" insignia on them for an SS formation, I think you need an SSR to invoke A25.11 (for the increased broken ML, underlined ML) for them. On official scenarios, though, there is usually such an SSR, like e.g.,:
"5-4-8/2-3-8 are SS (A25.11) and as such a have their broken Morale Factor increased by one..."

 

[Robin Reeve]

The Last Dinner just doesn't sound right.

Because you are evoking older English.
Like Xmas Evening would sound strange too.