ASLSK New Rule Wishlist

trailrunner

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I see less players moving to ASL simply due to the PRICE/Complexity coupled with the lack of availability.
I think the primary reason is that SK is a great game system on its own. It's 80% of the fun for 50% of the rules. There are plenty of scenarios. Another factor is that you can play at any level you want. Don't want to bother with AFVs? Then play something from SK1 or SK2. Some of my SK friends are happy just playing infantry scenarios.

Another reason is keeping the SK and ASL rules separate isn't always obvious. The SK players I know have the ASL rulebook and will consult it sometimes to clarify a point. Then we lose track of the rules not in SK. It's not uncommon during a SK game to say "uh, I think that's in the full rules" - e.g., does rolling a 2 or 12 during an MC invoke anything special? Sort of the inverse of this is that when looking at the ASL rulebook, it's not clear which sections need to be studied to bridge up from SK.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I realize that the Starter Kit concept was designed with the goal of providing new players a gateway into full ASL with much simpler rules at a lower initial cost. There is no question that endeavor was successful, and that there are new ASL players today who got into the full game via ASLSK.

But, it is also apparent that, whether intentional or not, after more than 16 years ASLSK has become a true stand alone system with its own community of dedicated players happy (for now) to stay with SK.

With that in mind, are there any rules you wish could be added to the existing SK4 rulebook (perhaps in a future expansion kit) similar to say how OBA was introduced with DaE?

Of course, the likelihood of such additions is extremely remote if for no other reason than it would go completely contrary to the Keep It Simple principle that has made SK popular.

Just curious to see if there is any interest.
The one thing that really stood out in my playing of the SKs is the lack of walls and hedges. Several reasons for including these, a couple of which stand out:

  • Would obviously be something good to add to the player's repertoire, going on the assumption the SK rules set eventually prepares you to play ASL. In fact, I suppose you could keep adding rules incrementally in multiple SK products until you've come within a small jump of recreating all the basic core rules of the ASL rulebook. Walls and hedges are one of the oldest terrain types in the system, dating back to the original SL. I'm not sure you get more "core" than that.
  • You would permit the use of so many more boards for ASLSK scenario designers, since they are ubiquitous.
Boards 1-60 (excluding desert)
Code:
Includes Walls/Hedges:   2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 32, 33, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 48, 49, 50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 59, 60
No Walls/Heges:          1, 5, 7, 9, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 47, 52, 58
Could have also said excluding PTO which would eliminate the "jungle" and forest boards, but the point is made just as well - walls and hedges are nearly everywhere on the ASL maps, particularly the obviously "European" ones.
 

trailrunner

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With that in mind, are there any rules you wish could be added to the existing SK4 rulebook (perhaps in a future expansion kit) similar to say how OBA was introduced with DaE?
IMO, the only thing that should be added now is sort of nibbling around the edges. I could see some special terrain, such as foxholes or more hilly terrain, or something like minefields, although some of these can be implemented by SSR. There's one or two scenarios that have SSRs for snow, and I like how they introduced hedgerows in BtB.
 

Perry

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The magic of walls/hedges in SK is to have boards where no woods/buildings are adjacent to the wall/hedge, thus avoiding tricky wall advantage situations.
 

Jwil2020

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Another reason is keeping the SK and ASL rules separate isn't always obvious. The SK players I know have the ASL rulebook and will consult it sometimes to clarify a point. Then we lose track of the rules not in SK. It's not uncommon during a SK game to say "uh, I think that's in the full rules" - e.g., does rolling a 2 or 12 during an MC invoke anything special? Sort of the inverse of this is that when looking at the ASL rulebook, it's not clear which sections need to be studied to bridge up from SK.
Good point regarding the need to keep SK and ASL rules separate. In my brief exposure to SK, I have noticed the tendency to run to the ASLRB every time something SEEMS to be unclear in the SKRB. This was understandable when SK1 was introduced more than 16 years ago. Rule gaps and unclear language were unavoidable. But, to their credit, the designers have addressed most, if not all, of those issues by the constant clarifying and adding errata of subsequent RBs, up to and including the 2020 edition of the rules (offered for free no less!).

Nevertheless, I still see forum posts that go something like this:
Q. "Hey, can someone explain the rule for Blah Blah in SK?"
A: 'Well, I'm not sure, but the rule in full ASL is Blah Blah..."

In my opinion, a careful study of the existing SKRB (2020 edition) shows that the designers have for the most part created a definitive SKRB that does not require constant referencing to full ASL.

But, to bring this reply back to the OP, I am definitely not seeking a merger of the two RBs. I was only curious if there were other players who thought SK could benefit from a few additional rules (perhaps in a future expansion in the form "optional rules?").

For now, I'll just keep playing the rules as written... and enjoying the experience!
 

cathmor01

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Speaking as a Starter Kit player who owns the entire SK line and most of the core modules for FASL, I have always intended to eventually graduate and get to play with all the toys I own. I think it would be helpful to have a starter kit expansion that is specifically meant to bridge the gap with a programmed approach similar to what the original Squad Leader did back in the day. - i.e. each scenario adds a new FASL rules section, using and building on the previously introduced rules.

Just my two cents.
 

Michael Dorosh

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First: Where does this thread only address SKlers?
The topic line clearly identifies this as a thread about the Starter Kit rules set.

Second: Why should my opinion not be shared by some SKlers?
You state in your first sentence you have no knowledge of the subject matter.
 

von Marwitz

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The topic line clearly identifies this as a thread about the Starter Kit rules set.
Yes. And does say nothing that feedback is supposed to be limited to SKlers.

You state in your first sentence you have no knowledge of the subject matter.
No. I state that I don't play SK, not that I have no knowledge of the subject matter.

I'll leave it at that. Next time just read more carefully.

von Marwitz
 

Stewart

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SK#1 is not always available, but it usually is. (It will be back in stock shortly.)

ASLRB and Beyond Valor are not always in stock, but they usually are. They are now.

The price and complexity (relatively speaking) have not changed much over the years.
Agreed.
But to spend $200+ on an intimidating RB and a module with 45 scenarios (good move btw), players that don't want to tackle that beast can get the same, if not MORE, from the SK system.
Good thing ? Bad Thing?
That's up for you guys at MMP to decide.
Can you have both...obviously. Overcoming the hurdle of patience, $$$, etc to enter ASL is a concern for many noobs to ASL.

Honestly, with my experience in the ASL community, the RB and its size is the LEAST of players worries. So much of the RB is ignored, misplayed, etc. Concern over playing ASL "correctly" is a Myth. It doesn't happen. Is that a problem...nah...just pushing counters around is fun.
Could you do that in SK with less "rules Stress" sure...and that's the draw to SK.
Plus SK has some DAMN good Scenarios
 

Stewart

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In my opinion, a careful study of the existing SKRB (2020 edition) shows that the designers have for the most part created a definitive SKRB that does not require constant referencing to full ASL.
IMO the ASLRB should NEVER be referenced. As you've stated, the SK RB needs to be addressed to "fill in the gaps". The problem in referencing the ASLRB is that you don't KNOW if it was intended to be just like ASL or intended to be left out.

As Perry stated above, We have walls, just not next to buildings and viola!! No WA bullshit that no one understands in ASL anyway.
LITTLE things like this you can extrapolate from ASL to SK. Just Read SK, HIGHLIGHT YOUR RULEBOOK as it is necessary to glean those famous ONE liners that you always forget.

IF you have questions, try to figure it out in SK terms. The Good Book will let you down sometimes and not a real good idea to have to reference the Tome. Let SK be self contained. Newer mods for SK will leak in more rules as necessary.
I recall one scenario with HIP and OBA....Done VERY well with SSR. NO bullshit contact, access, etc. and It worked VERY well.
So, game concepts can be included, but as a SSR when done properly.
 

Perry

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Reading the full ASLRB can give one insight into the SK rules.

Whenever there is a direct conflict, one should assume the SK rules are correct, although players have helped us find errors in SK via such comparisons.
 
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