ASLML manners and the Spuddies

Stubinpsu

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The thread on Manners and some of the comments about the ASLML got me thinking: What was the event that sparked Tom Repetti to forgo doing the Spuddies for 2003? I'm thinking it had something to do with manners on the ASLML.

Personally, I subscribed to the ASLML in the middle of 1998 and as far getting rules questions answered it was solid tool- if you asked a question in the morning chances were you got at least one response by the early afternoon. The response may not be right but if there was a rules reference you got going in the right direction.

I hope with the revival of the ASLML on a more stable host will allow it to return to the 80-100 messages per day we had in 98-99.

Stu
 

Gunner Scott

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the great SS flame war

Hi-

I think what killed the list was numerous flame wars, the worst one being the HoB, MMP Black SS counters flame war. That one was brutal, very brutal, and lots of people unsubcribed after that one.



Scott
 

ASLgrognard

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Hmmm

Not having been part of the ASLML, I'm really curious - What was all the furor about the HOB Black counters all about?
 

Gunner Scott

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Well; in a nut shell, all the ASL publishers showed their true colors, MMP sent lawyers out to crush HoB from publishing its SS counters, Critical Hit made stupid accusations and basically made fool's of them selves. Eddie Z. and Curt S. exchanged nasty remarks in public about each other, about Tapio, about cats and dogs living together.

Of course you also had the peanut gallery stiring the pot too. but in the end, the list went down from around 2000 subcribers to perhaps 150 by 2003.

Lot of animosity was created and still lives on today..................


Scott
 

Harold

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?

Lets not go stirring the pot Scott :wink: . MMP has the unenviable task of watching out for what is Hasbro's copyright's to ASL. They don't have a choice. Such things as counter artwork and scenario layout seem to fall into that category. That's why most 3rd party products that are being purchased have a different layout and no counter artwork in the scenario cards. You can DYO your own original artwork and possibly be legit but I'm not certain. If anyone is thinking about getting into the ASL biz a la Schwerpunkt or HoB it might be in your best interest to contact MMP and see what Hasbro considers legit or not. Plus MMP pays a chunk of licensing fee every year for the privilege of cranking out ASL products to a cranky audience.
Don't know if the subscriber list ever reached 2000. I do know why I quit. The web interface combined with other message boards like Consimworld made it easy. It was made easier by the usual flamewars. Don't miss it either.
 

Matt Romey

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Personally, I backed out of the ASLML not because of the acrimony (which I always found mildly amusing) but because it just started to bore me. The posts became dominated more and more by people that I didn't relate to. Not that these people were a-holes, just that they discussed things that I wasn't real interested in. I think others felt the same way, so when Repetti and Tabbie and Dolan and (the other) JR and Manlig I don't remember who else are all keeping lower profiles, then the interest level is lower for me too. You know it's bad when Tate is posting the most interesting stuff.

I think the catalyst was when Ole Boe faded away. :) Or maybe when Patrik and Tate had a falling out.
:-0
 

Gunner Scott

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Harold;
I dont get me wrong, at one time I hated the fact that MMP had complete control of AsL, but now I could care less as the old saying goes, if you cant beat them, join them. I respect the fact that they are now the license holder for ASL, but who knows, I might change my mind on the dime. And rant about somthing in the future.

Matt;
Well, I just got tired of Curt e-mailing me on how I should not encourage people to buy 3rd party products after I post an AAR on one, but I did show fair play by posting AAR's on some of the J4 scenarios, granted they were unbalanced dogs, but I did try. Anyway, after several of MMP supporters kept flaming me for my AAR's I just gave up anf left the list.

ha ha, perhaps I'll post my old AAR's here, what do you guys think?

Scott
 

Stubinpsu

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Personally, I backed out of the ASLML not because of the acrimony (which I always found mildly amusing) but because it just started to bore me.
I have to agree with the part about finding the acrimony amusing. :twisted:

I didn't mean to get people heading down memory lane of the ASLML.- sorry if this topic causes some old rivalries to pop up. What I'm trying to learn is what happened that caused the spuddies to be discontinued after 2002. Not that I recieved that many but they were a lot of fun.
 

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Wow, lots of bad memories, probably the last nuclear flame war was capped by Curt's open letter about TPP's in late 1999 (on the heels of the Black Counter/Third Bridge stuff). While that controversy (really, really acrimonious) helped drive away some of the better listers, I think the list still carried on in productive fashion for another 2-3 years, with the intermittent flame war flare ups but still useful. I think what's killed the list really is the severe server problems (which IIRC started in 2002 and ultimately killed it in 2003). The latest AOL fiasco certainly didn't help. While the list was having those problems, Consimworld's board thrived and places like this Forum came up. Put the posts from here and CSW combined with other forums (like WarfareHQ) together with the list and overall quantity hasn't really changed, I think. It's just relocated.

I assumed Tom's decision to drop the Spuddies was related to the unreliability of the list server preventing the list from functioning well enough to generate Spuddy-worthy material, although certainly the loss of some of the more entertaining contributors over the years may have helped. Whether any specific issues contributed other than that, I have no idea, although I suspect something else did.

Pete
 

Stubinpsu

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probably the last nuclear flame war was capped by Curt's open letter about TPP's in late 1999 (on the heels of the Black Counter/Third Bridge stuff
I forgot about this. That was pretty nuclear.


Stu
 

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Spuddies and Flame wars on the ASLML

David Olie (with Tom Repetti's permission) is resurrecting the spuddies for this year.

The ASLML has *ALWAYS* been populated by a handful of prolific posting idiots. I've lurked there for many years (since 1991). However the current crop of prolific posting idiots, usually redeem themselves occasionally by actually posting useful commentary.

There is a way to experience the ASLML without the idiots. Marty Snow runs an ASLML mirror site where he forwards the good stuff and leaves the garbage behind.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/aslx/

There have been some true classic flame wars in addition to the previously mentioned. "Jammer" and "wolf". IFT and IIFT flame wars - the early editions. The great AH vrs CH lawsuit. TPPs and copyrights, over and over again. The death of AH and what it meant. Gun control and other American political crap. Reality arguments.

Someone out there has the complete collection of posts by wolf. That was really funny in a sick and twisted way. If you ever get a chance give those a read. Then you'll know why "garage" is a swear word.


Adrian
 

Bryan Holtby

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The ASLML has been dying a slow painful death over the last 4 years now, less posters and more junk posts are appearing. 80% of the posts on any given topic are from the same 6 ppl, and the quality degenerates rapidly. I left the list after a few weeks of 100 emails a day and 4 were ASL related. It got to the point where I began wearing the letters off my delete key (no joke either).

I will say the rule discussions are far better there (when I could follow it on the web interface) than here, and thats unfortunate because threads are much easier to follow on a forum.

But I suppose the list will linger on for quite a while yet as many post from an office and may or may not have internet access at home. It is unlikely that they are allowed to 'surf' while at work. And using a forum is classed as surfing.
 

ericblick

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I am way too lately a returning ASL player to comment directly on the old flame wars but I have read enough to note that they are no different than what happens on any virtual forum.

Absent the social controls that govern personal interaction in the "real" world (glaring looks, immediate negative comments and implied physical threats, even) these forums are rife with individuals who would never act in the same manner if in a room with the same individuals.

That's reality, dudes.

Having said that, the ASLML is the MAIN reason I am interested in getting involved in ASL again. Intelligent filtering of posts can shed a lot of light on the regular posters' individual viewpoints.

Cranks. Pedantics. Obsessives. Nutcases. Great people.

Often all in one.

My willingness to continue to struggle to get playing locally is entirely connected to the free help listers have offered me in my short time back in the fold. I wish people would reflect a bit about the cool thing a stupid game offers.

Community. Worldwide.

Outstanding.

Long live the Spuddies, ands the List.

Peace,

Steve
 

pryoung

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Re: Spuddies and Flame wars on the ASLML

AdrianE said:
There have been some true classic flame wars in addition to the previously mentioned. "Jammer" and "wolf". IFT and IIFT flame wars - the early editions. The great AH vrs CH lawsuit. TPPs and copyrights, over and over again. The death of AH and what it meant. Gun control and other American political crap. Reality arguments.

Someone out there has the complete collection of posts by wolf. That was really funny in a sick and twisted way. If you ever get a chance give those a read. Then you'll know why "garage" is a swear word.
Wouldn't really classify Wolf as a flame war. Actually, I'm not really sure how to classify Wolf. Seminal moment in the list's history, though.

Pete
 

kdalton

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Demise of the Spuddies

The ASLML, for all its faults, is what drew me back into the game. The fact that ASL was being produced at all in 2000 was a shock to me, and I was glad to have MMP producing it. I thought the game was dead.

I looked forward to the Spuddies for every year, but I can understand Tom's decision not to publish any given the spotty technical performance of the ASLML server over last year. There was hardly anything to judge.

FWIW, while there have been some minor flame wars this year, there has been nothing like what occurred in the past. When things wander too far afield, one of the moderators issues a warning.

When the ASLML first came back up after dying last year, it was totally moderated and all messages were put in a queue for moderators to approve. A few weeks of that was enough for everyone to realize that they needed to start practicing some manners and decorum to avoid full moderation as a permanent fixture, I believe.

I look forward to the new incarnation of the Spuddies.
 

Tater

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Demise of the Spuddies

CPL ScottH said:
Well; in a nut shell, all the ASL publishers showed their true colors, MMP sent lawyers out to crush HoB from publishing its SS counters, Critical Hit made stupid accusations and basically made fool's of them selves. Eddie Z. and Curt S. exchanged nasty remarks in public about each other, about Tapio, about cats and dogs living together.

Of course you also had the peanut gallery stiring the pot too. but in the end, the list went down from around 2000 subcribers to perhaps 150 by 2003.

Lot of animosity was created and still lives on today..................


Scott
Disagree with this completely....

1) Your statement actually covers 3 distinct threads that occurred at various times:
a) CH accusing HOB of being Nazi apologists. A ridiculous and hypocritical statement since CH had only recently released a scenario pack based exclusively on an SS formation.
b) Copyright infringement and MMP's legal responsibilities to Hasbro.
c) TPP...good, bad, or ugly...

2) The ASLML never had 2000 subscribers. I think Paul Ferraro reported that the list max at any time was around 900...including digest subscribers.

3) Up until the recent crash I understand it was fluctuating around 500-600 members of all types.

There is probably no more animosity on the ASLML than there is to found in any other group of 500-1000 folks of divergent backgrounds, cultures, socio-economic status, etc.

To survive on the ASLML one must shed the idea that one's posts/ideas are to be treated like the Ten Commandments. One man's golden words of genius is another man's horse%#@$. If one can internalize that concept then the ASLML becomes what it is and should be...just one more form of entertainment.
 

Aries

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I discovered the ASLML about the same time I discovered the personal computer and the internet and the fact that I wasn't locked out of wargaming after moving away from Toronto and a decent place to buy wargaming goods.

Where I live now (which is where I grew up prior to living in Toronto for a few years) is something of the middle of cottage country central ontario, nad hardly wargaming heaven as far as stores go.

So the ASLML was naturally cool (so I thought initially). But I missed out on all these much known to some flame wars.
I was driven off by people who to term correctly would require terms unsuitable for the forum here.

It has NOTHING to do directly with ASL in fact. It was 100% as a result of the people on it at that time being nothing better than pure scum.

I had met 1 or 2 persons worthy of generous praise, but I found much to my disgust, that the majority deserved to spend their lives isolated in a room alone with nothing but their PC as I see it. I frankly would not enjoy meeting them in person. Generally, people are truely what they seem.

I for instance, don't hold onto any belief, that the person you are n the net, is in any way different from the guy you are in person at home or at work. We ain't just hiding behind a monitor safe knowing we can turn off the system and all is magically made different.

People really are what they show themselves to be.

I had only made reference to Rememberence Day, or I guess to a Yank Memorial Day, and what I thought might be a nice way to observe it.
I was instantly branded a commie nazi and all manner of contradictory terms that only illustrated that both my countrymen as well as the US members were both jerks of the most undesirable sort, but not even sifficiently bright enough to understand how stupid a phrase like "commie nazi" truely is.

And it wasn't just a few remarks, it was a veritable barrage.

I have never forgiven the ASLML for it, and it is unlikely I ever will.
Thus, this forum and Warfare HQ will do just fine. I think it's superior, easier to use, easier to read, easier to manage.

And for those that are part of the ASLML today, you are eiother the scum I knew then, or you have since joined, and will just have to pay for the actions of past scum that have permanently sullied the name ASLML.

You might be part of this forum and Warfare HQ while using the ASLML, but you will really have to contend with the fact, that to me, the ASLML simply doesn't exist. I wouldn't miss it if it disappeared.

Sorry for the rant, but I want people to realise, it isn't always an argument over copywrite and/or who is doing what with ASL.
Sometimes it is purely the result of members being fine examples of all that makes the world lousy sometimes.
 
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