ASLK2 nuances!

[ForgetFullPhil]

Can a crew, HS or other MMC use its inherent firepower alongside its ordnance (eg 155 ART) to attack a nearby enemy hex say 3 hexes away. I know ordnance cannot firegroup but are units in the same hex a firegroup? Also can the 155 (no RoF) just keep firing or does it just have the one shot (two if Intensive Firing). ie what does no RoF actually entail?

 

[jrv]

A crew or halfsquad can use EITHER its inherent FP OR a weapon (SW, Gun) it possesses for any given attack (4.0). A squad may fire its inherent in addition to one weapon, or it may fire two weapons, forfeiting its inherent.

A weapon with no ROF can fire once and is then marked with a fire counter. Under certain circumstances, Intensive Fire being the most common one, a weapon may fire again if marked with a fire counter.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I know ordnance cannot firegroup but are units in the same hex a firegroup?

Only if firing at the same target (hex/location) and using inherent, MG or ATR FP. An unbroken chain of adjacent units can also be a firegroup if firing at the same target. Note that it's not just ordnance that can't firegroup, FTs can't, even though a FT does not use the TH mechanism.

In ASL some circumstances vehicles (personnel carriers) may use their FP in a firegroup but that doesn't apply in ASLSK, ASLSK not having halftrack APCs or similar.

 

[jrv]

In ASL some circumstances vehicles (personnel carriers) may use their FP in a firegroup but that doesn't apply in ASLSK, ASLSK not having halftrack APCs or similar.

In (full) ASL the vehicle does not have to be a personnel carrier, as Riders may FG with the AAMG [D6.64]. I can't say I have ever seen it done. ASLSK does not have Riders, so the factoid is not relevant here.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

Also check the back side of the 155 ART counter, it may contain a No IF (No Intensive Fire) annotation which would of course preclude any intensive fire from the weapon system. (I don't have that ASLSK module so I couldn't tell you if any of the 155mm pieces provided have that limitation).

 

[jrv]

Also check the back side of the 155 ART counter, it may contain a No IF (No Intensive Fire) annotation which would of course preclude any intensive fire from the weapon system. (I don't have that ASLSK module so I couldn't tell you if any of the 155mm pieces provided have that limitation).

ASLSK#2 has the M1 155mm Howitzer, which is capable of using Intensive Fire.

JR

 

[ForgetFullPhil]

Thanks jrv for your input. I've checked section 4 of ASLSK2 rules and it says that a SQUAD could fire a 105 without cost to its own FP. It also says that if a HS or crew fires its weapon, then it forfeits its own FP for any remaining fire phases. What it doesn't say is whether the crew, HS or squad can fire together with its 155 at the same time at the same target. The location of adjacent hex FP for a FG is not relevant here: we know a FG cannot be formed if ordnance is used. Finally, where in the rules does it say that a non RoF weapon cannot just keep firing until the enemies run out! Maybe in full ASL? From Paul's input, I do not know what an ATR is. Thanks guys!

 

[jrv]

Thanks jrv for your input. I've checked section 4 of ASLSK2 rules and it says that a SQUAD could fire a 105 without cost to its own FP. It also says that if a HS or crew fires its weapon, then it forfeits its own FP for any remaining fire phases. What it doesn't say is whether the crew, HS or squad can fire together with its 155 at the same time at the same target. The location of adjacent hex FP for a FG is not relevant here: we know a FG cannot be formed if ordnance is used. Finally, where in the rules does it say that a non RoF weapon cannot just keep firing until the enemies run out! Maybe in full ASL? From Paul's input, I do not know what an ATR is. Thanks guys!

4.0 in ASLSK#2 has an error in it. It says a squad can fire two weapons by sacrificing its own FP "for the current and any remaining fire phases." For crew/halfsquad it says, "for any remaining fire phases." That is an error. It should say, "for the current and any remaining fire phases," as with a squad firing two weapons. This was corrected in the ASLSK Expansion Pack #1 rulebook. You can consider it an erratum if you like.

ATR=Anti-Tank Rifle. ATRs first show up in ASLSK#3.

Per 3.2, "No unit may fire at full strength more than once per Player Turn, except with Weapons maintaining ROF." The exception about not at full strength is about subsequent first fire, final protective fire and defensive final fire by units marked with a first fire marker against adjacent targets. All of these are applicable to inherent FP, IFE (6.8) and MGs only, i.e. not ordnance. As it turns out the sentence in 3.2 is not quite entirely true. Per 3.2.4 a gun which has lost ROF (or never had it) may fire again using Intensive Fire.

JR

 

[jrv]

As an aside, the ASLSKs had a small number of errors in phrasing and also omission of important aspects of some rules. This is one example. I have found and reported others. As an experienced player on first pass of answering a question I generally do not do more than scan the rules so I can provide a rules reference. It is easy for me to overlook something like this, so I apologize for not understanding what the issue was that you were seeing. As the ASLSK series has continued, many of these have been corrected, so if you own later ones you may want to check whether the rule has changed. I hope these have been corrected in later versions of the same set of rules, but I only own the first publication of each, so I can't verify whether they have or not.

JR

 

[ForgetFullPhil]

Thats great. Cleared up the issue of crews & HSs firing alongside ordnance. But what about this confusion over ordnance with no RoF? ASLSK2 indicates in 3.2.4 that a gun with no RoF (eg the 155 ART) that changes its CA is marked with an Intensive Fire Counter. The corollary of this is that if it hasn't changed CA then it is NOT marked with an IF counter & can keep firing! If it can do this in Intensive Fire, then why not in the Prep Fire Phase or any of the Defensive Fire Phases?? My goodness ASLSK asks so many question!!

 

[ForgetFullPhil]

Just another thought. OK so we sorted out the crew & half crew situation vis a vis firing alongside ordnance but what about a full MMC squad. Can they fire alongside ordnance (one weapon) at the same time??

 

[jrv]

Just another thought. OK so we sorted out the crew & half crew situation vis a vis firing alongside ordnance but what about a full MMC squad. Can they fire alongside ordnance (one weapon) at the same time??

I am not clear what you mean by firing "at the same time". If you mean, "can they fire in the same Phase?" then the answer is yes. They need not fire sequentially in that phase, that is you can fire the ordnance, fire some other units and/or their weapons, then fire the inherent, or reverse the inherent and the ordnance.

If you mean can they make a single attack, somehow combining the inherent FP with the ordnance, then the answer is no. Ordnance may not firegroup, which is the only mechanism for units/weapons to combine attacks.

JR

 

[jrv]

But what about this confusion over ordnance with no RoF? ASLSK2 indicates in 3.2.4 that a gun with no RoF (eg the 155 ART) that changes its CA is marked with an Intensive Fire Counter. The corollary of this is that if it hasn't changed CA then it is NOT marked with an IF counter & can keep firing! If it can do this in Intensive Fire, then why not in the Prep Fire Phase or any of the Defensive Fire Phases?? My goodness ASLSK asks so many question!!

I think you already know the answer to the question. These are the rules that cover it. Any weapon that fires is either marked with the appropriate fire marker, per 3.2.5 in the PFPh or per 3.3.1 as DFF in the enemy MPh unless it maintains ROF. A unit that fires in the AFPh is limited to one attack per 3.5. A unit/weapon that fires in the DFPh is marked with a Final Fire marker unless it maintains ROF. This is overlooked in 3.4 I think, but it is what the rule should say.

The difference in the case of changing CA with a gun that does not have ROF and one that does is that a gun that does not have ROF is immediately marked with an Intensive Fire counter. A gun that has a ROF is not. Guns that are NT guns have their ROF lowered by one, so they have an effective ROF of zero, but if such a gun does not keep ROF, it is marked with the appropriate, non-Intensive-Fire counter, i.e. Prep counter in the PFPh or First Fire in the enemy MPh. That would allow the gun to Intensive Fire. In the DFPh the gun would be marked with a Final Fire counter, which will prevent it from firing again in the DFPh. In the AFPh a unit/weapon may make at most one attack.

JR

 

[ForgetFullPhil]

Thanks JR. Although the rules aren't exactly clear your arguments do have a logic. A RoF less 155 ART should be harder to fire again than a 105. Reading the FG rules again it becomes clearer that even units in the same hex can be called a Fire Group, so yes, no way can ordnance make a single combined attack with units in the same hex, no matter what their make up. Thanks again.

 

[TheSQLGuru]

Per the last paragraph of rule 4.0 Support Weapons (Decision at Elst edition, marked in Salmon as the first time this section appears in SK):

A squad may fire any one Weapon at no cost to its own FP. A squad may fire two Weapons (and a HS/Crew fire one Weapon) but forfeits its own FP for the current and any remaining fire phases in that Player Turn (except for SFF, FPF and Final Fire vs adjacent units). CCPh is not considered a fire phase.

This is a rather important addition to an MMC's firepower capabilities as the scenario defender. It should be considered an errata for all lower rulebook editions, although it holds the potential to sway scenarios a bit towards the defender in Infantry heavy situations (and to Germans as defenders when Panzerfausts are available) no scenarios prior to DaE (i.e. the VAST majority of them) would have been tested with this rule in effect.

 

[62nd Army]

Per the last paragraph of rule 4.0 Support Weapons (Decision at Elst edition, marked in Salmon as the first time this section appears in SK):

A squad may fire any one Weapon at no cost to its own FP. A squad may fire two Weapons (and a HS/Crew fire one Weapon) but forfeits its own FP for the current and any remaining fire phases in that Player Turn (except for SFF, FPF and Final Fire vs adjacent units). CCPh is not considered a fire phase.

This is a rather important addition to an MMC's firepower capabilities as the scenario defender. It should be considered an errata for all lower rulebook editions, although it holds the potential to sway scenarios a bit towards the defender in Infantry heavy situations (and to Germans as defenders when Panzerfausts are available) no scenarios prior to DaE (i.e. the VAST majority of them) would have been tested with this rule in effect.

I may be missing something, but this is in ASLSK #1, Section 4 SWs (Page 11) The Anniversary edition includes (except for SFF, FPF and Final Fire vs adjacent units) the original did not, the anniversary edition is NOT highlighted with this update.

Thanks
Joe

 

[klasmalmstrom]

This is a rather important addition to an MMC's firepower capabilities as the scenario defender. It should be considered an errata for all lower rulebook editions, although it holds the potential to sway scenarios a bit towards the defender in Infantry heavy situations (and to Germans as defenders when Panzerfausts are available) no scenarios prior to DaE (i.e. the VAST majority of them) would have been tested with this rule in effect.

The same paragraph (pretty much) is present in my SK #2 rulebook.

 

[TheSQLGuru]

I was just going by the highlighting. I have SK 1 RB on my laptop (in London currently), which has signficant issues with that section. I also have Exp Pack RB, and it too has flaws compared to DaE. I don't know why SK 1 10th Ann Ed RB is not highlighted. I am jet lagged and cannot remember the release dates. Perhaps DaE came out before the SK 1 refresh?